From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 09:54:19 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 09:54:19 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Seminar in Amon Hen
In-Reply-To: <4AEC284A.20009@roots-boots.net>
References: <ecc18000910201454l5717ebbcqce00912844d60371@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F333A83ED154CF89047FD7B5BD25A92@Michael>
	<ecc18000910281543p7d71ff22vc728183c02f747d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AEC284A.20009@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <ecc18000910311554j23e7ec2dw3da9155fad224d10@mail.gmail.com>

Yep Davy...tis  Tony Galdamez....enschooldegong!
jeff

A sad day the other day...The Lone Ranger Died!

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:

> G'day Jeff,
>
> Just confirming ... Tony's name is Galdamez and NOT Galda or Galdas?
>
>
> cheers,
> David
> --
> Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
>     http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
> The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
>  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
>          own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
>
> _______________________________________________
>  List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:42:39 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Seminar in Amon Hen
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000910311554j23e7ec2dw3da9155fad224d10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200156.64544.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

enschooldegong! ... Schweindeutsch? Or maybe Schweitzerdeutsch?

Who was the Lone Ranger? You mean Tonto has to carry on alone?

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

Yep Davy...tis? Tony Galdamez....enschooldegong!
jeff

A sad day the other day...The Lone Ranger Died!





      __________________________________________________________________________________
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From mlk at activ8.net.au  Sun Nov  1 16:03:46 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:03:46 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <200156.64544.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D0D8A60D42904994A8E0CA7D545BB212@Michael>

Speaking of lone rangers, who is the loneliest character in The Lord of The
Rings? Naturally Gollum comes to mind but he did have Smeagol for company.
Maybe Gandalf, particularly after he returned in White. Frodo as the ring
bearer? What about Bilbo who basically lived as a hermit in an Elven
conclave after losing the ring? 

  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Sunday, 1 November 2009 12:43 PM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Seminar in Amon Hen
> 
> enschooldegong! ... Schweindeutsch? Or maybe Schweitzerdeutsch?
> 
> Who was the Lone Ranger? You mean Tonto has to carry on alone?
> 
> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yep Davy...tis? Tony Galdamez....enschooldegong!
> jeff
> 
> A sad day the other day...The Lone Ranger Died!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From dragon at roots-boots.net  Sun Nov  1 16:21:59 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 16:21:59 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <D0D8A60D42904994A8E0CA7D545BB212@Michael>
References: <D0D8A60D42904994A8E0CA7D545BB212@Michael>
Message-ID: <4AED1AF7.4040409@roots-boots.net>

Michael Kennedy wrote:
> Speaking of lone rangers, who is the loneliest character in The Lord of The
> Rings? Naturally Gollum comes to mind but he did have Smeagol for company.
> Maybe Gandalf, particularly after he returned in White. Frodo as the ring
> bearer? What about Bilbo who basically lived as a hermit in an Elven
> conclave after losing the ring? 

Sauron perhaps?

cheers,
David



> 
>   
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
>> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
>> Sent: Sunday, 1 November 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
>> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Seminar in Amon Hen
>>
>> enschooldegong! ... Schweindeutsch? Or maybe Schweitzerdeutsch?
>>
>> Who was the Lone Ranger? You mean Tonto has to carry on alone?
>>
>> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yep Davy...tis  Tony Galdamez....enschooldegong!
>> jeff
>>
>> A sad day the other day...The Lone Ranger Died!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>> ___________________
>> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
>> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> List mailing list
>> List at tolharndor.org
>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> 

-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:47:52 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:47:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <D0D8A60D42904994A8E0CA7D545BB212@Michael>
Message-ID: <180242.25569.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I started to write a reply, then realised that I was using material that I had planned to use in my presentation next August. I'll therefore keep it short. :)? I don't think Sauron qualifies because of his obvious desire to be a Dark Lord, and Dark Lords have no friends, only minions. Frodo had Sam as his sidekick while Gollum was bipolar, perhaps as a result of the slaying of Deagol preying on his mind. Gandalf seemed too aloof to be lonely. Eowyn was pretty lonely after she fell in love with Aragorn and didn't have her love returned, but she presumably got over this when Faramir wooed her. Arwen may have been lonely through all the years that Aragorn was in the wilds, but then she'd apparently been without a beau for a couple of thousand years before that. Saruman became a bit of a desperado with nobody but Wormtongue for company (Radagast had "gone to the birds" probably for similar reasons), and the there were all the ents with no entwives anywhere.
 That's by no means exhausted the possibilities - what about Rose Cotton, waiting for Sam to return? Bilbo, however I would omit - he seemed absolutely content with Elrond laying on the hospitality and a final trip to Valinor in the offing. Then there was Celeborn, with Galadriel about to walk out on him and also take the trip to Valinor. It seems to me there was no shortage of loneliness in Middle Earth. Perhaps the loneliest person that relates to the story, though, was Edith Tolkien waiting for her husband to stop writing, come home from the pub, and give her a bit of tlc.

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:


Speaking of lone rangers, who is the loneliest character in The Lord of The
Rings? Naturally Gollum comes to mind but he did have Smeagol for company.
Maybe Gandalf, particularly after he returned in White. Frodo as the ring
bearer? What about Bilbo who basically lived as a hermit in an Elven
conclave after losing the ring? 

? 



      __________________________________________________________________________________
Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/

From dragon at roots-boots.net  Sun Nov  1 20:21:05 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:21:05 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <180242.25569.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <180242.25569.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AED5301.2070400@roots-boots.net>

Edwin Scribner wrote:

 > .. I don't think Sauron qualifies because of his obvious desire to
 > be a Dark Lord, and Dark Lords have no friends, only minions.

I don't see why this disqualifies him? Are you saying that only "good" 
people are capable of feeling lonely? I would think that Dark Lord's 
would be the loneliest people (well entities) around .. as far as they 
were concerned, people would fall into three categories .. those weaker 
who were there to be used and dominated. Those who are equals are seen 
as enemies to be fought and defeated. Superiors are there to be plotted 
against to bring their downfalls.

As you say, no friends. How can you be lonelier than that?

cheers,
David
-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov  1 20:47:37 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 01:47:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <4AED5301.2070400@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <387324.33355.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Dark Lords are lonely in the same way that Prime Ministers and CEOs are lonely. Loneliness is the price you pay for being at the top. They wanted to be at the top and they put up with loneliness (among other things) to attain that end.

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:


Edwin Scribner wrote:

> .. I don't think Sauron qualifies because of his obvious desire to
> be a Dark Lord, and Dark Lords have no friends, only minions.

I don't see why this disqualifies him? Are you saying that only "good" people are capable of feeling lonely? I would think that Dark Lord's would be the loneliest people (well entities) around .. as far as they were concerned, people would fall into three categories .. those weaker who were there to be used and dominated. Those who are equals are seen as enemies to be fought and defeated. Superiors are there to be plotted against to bring their downfalls.

As you say, no friends. How can you be lonelier than that?





      __________________________________________________________________________________
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From dragon at roots-boots.net  Sun Nov  1 21:46:59 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 21:46:59 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <387324.33355.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <387324.33355.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AED6723.1060101@roots-boots.net>

Edwin Scribner wrote:
> Dark Lords are lonely in the same way that Prime Ministers and CEOs are
 > lonely. Loneliness is the price you pay for being at the top. They wanted
 > to be at the top and they put up with loneliness (among other things)
 > to attain that end.

Exactly ... so Sauron would be an ideal candidate ... you can't rule him 
  out for the title of "Loneliest Entity in Middle Earth" simply because 
he was a Dark Lord.

You could then, using the same logic, rule out Gandalf, Saruman and co, 
'cousins' of Sauron, since they chose lives of exile in ME. Aragorn 
chose to be a lonely ranger .. rule him out ... Arwen chose to be an 
elven spinster .. rule her out .. etc, etc etc ...

cheers,
David


> 
> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Edwin Scribner wrote:
> 
>> .. I don't think Sauron qualifies because of his obvious desire to
>> be a Dark Lord, and Dark Lords have no friends, only minions.
> 
> I don't see why this disqualifies him? Are you saying that only "good" people are capable of feeling lonely? I would think that Dark Lord's would be the loneliest people (well entities) around .. as far as they were concerned, people would fall into three categories .. those weaker who were there to be used and dominated. Those who are equals are seen as enemies to be fought and defeated. Superiors are there to be plotted against to bring their downfalls.
> 
> As you say, no friends. How can you be lonelier than that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> 

-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Mon Nov  2 06:44:40 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:44:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <4AED6723.1060101@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <489935.70142.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Some chose loneliness. They presumably can handle it. It is the ones like Frodo, Gollum, the Ents, Rosie Cotton etc who were placed in a position of loneliness by the actions of others who should be most regarded for their plight. This may not mean that they are the most lonely, but in any case there isn't any scale of loneliness - you can only measure it by their actions.

I didn't mention Tom Bombadil. He gave the impression of having lived beside the Old Forest for eons. His explanation of Goldberry was imho fishy at best (NPI) but it would make sense in the consideration of his having been solitary for a very long time. I'll stick with my story that she was not the daughter of the River Woman (who was imho a fictional character) but his daughter by a woman long since dead.

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:


Edwin Scribner wrote:
> Dark Lords are lonely in the same way that Prime Ministers and CEOs are
> lonely. Loneliness is the price you pay for being at the top. They wanted
> to be at the top and they put up with loneliness (among other things)
> to attain that end.

Exactly ... so Sauron would be an ideal candidate ... you can't rule him? out for the title of "Loneliest Entity in Middle Earth" simply because he was a Dark Lord.

You could then, using the same logic, rule out Gandalf, Saruman and co, 'cousins' of Sauron, since they chose lives of exile in ME. Aragorn chose to be a lonely ranger .. rule him out ... Arwen chose to be an elven spinster .. rule her out .. etc, etc etc ...





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From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 09:39:00 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:39:00 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Seminar in Amon Hen
In-Reply-To: <200156.64544.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000910311554j23e7ec2dw3da9155fad224d10@mail.gmail.com>
	<200156.64544.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911011439l27bac9chf7d9e1518070c561@mail.gmail.com>

And if ya in London and you are of (a certain Age) ya can even refer to..or
perhaps run into A Sloane Ranger?
Been There?
jeff

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> enschooldegong! ... Schweindeutsch? Or maybe Schweitzerdeutsch?
>
> Who was the Lone Ranger? You mean Tonto has to carry on alone?
>
> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yep Davy...tis  Tony Galdamez....enschooldegong!
> jeff
>
> A sad day the other day...The Lone Ranger Died!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
>  List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 09:55:20 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:55:20 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <D0D8A60D42904994A8E0CA7D545BB212@Michael>
References: <200156.64544.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<D0D8A60D42904994A8E0CA7D545BB212@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911011455i7bc6cda3x8ac6328de126939e@mail.gmail.com>

A poem based on Tonto's soliloquy...and being seen riding the Lone Ranger
Home (after a busy night!)

Home, home on the Ranger,
Just when you t'ort that
Things could not get any stranger.....
And I've seen buffalos roam
In their filfthy home
and the deer and the four wheel drives play.
I've tried ringing a cab....
I've attempted to nab
A pony express from it's staging place.
I'm up here and high
And on passers I spy,
And if they ask me why in the hell I
Ride the ranger so well...
I simply tell them
That I had so much practice
Now the last lines don't ryhme
And I'm having a hell of a time
To balance on the masked man's back....

I tried for and ambo....
And we've run out of ammo.
If the white fellows come I am stuffed.
I'll be charged with an offence
And it would make for more sense
If I rode something tamer....
Like a taxi, a cougar or a camel.
But camels are scarce,
And I confess I feel nice
On the ranger....O for he's no stranger to me.
jeff


On the
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

> Speaking of lone rangers, who is the loneliest character in The Lord of The
> Rings? Naturally Gollum comes to mind but he did have Smeagol for company.
> Maybe Gandalf, particularly after he returned in White. Frodo as the ring
> bearer? What about Bilbo who basically lived as a hermit in an Elven
> conclave after losing the ring?
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> > Sent: Sunday, 1 November 2009 12:43 PM
> > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Seminar in Amon Hen
> >
> > enschooldegong! ... Schweindeutsch? Or maybe Schweitzerdeutsch?
> >
> > Who was the Lone Ranger? You mean Tonto has to carry on alone?
> >
> > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Yep Davy...tis  Tony Galdamez....enschooldegong!
> > jeff
> >
> > A sad day the other day...The Lone Ranger Died!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > ___________________
> > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> > Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From dryad0404 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Nov  2 15:03:22 2009
From: dryad0404 at yahoo.co.uk (dryad)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 04:03:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <180242.25569.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <697017.70946.qm@web24613.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

HappyAll Souls Day/Saints Day....
?
I feel that there is someone who is underrated as the loneliest in ME....the poor feriously hot Balrog. The last of its kind and all. Must be very lonely. sigh.
?
Elise

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:


From: Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com>
Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
To: "Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society" <list at tolharndor.org>
Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 1:47 AM


I started to write a reply, then realised that I was using material that I had planned to use in my presentation next August. I'll therefore keep it short. :)? I don't think Sauron qualifies because of his obvious desire to be a Dark Lord, and Dark Lords have no friends, only minions. Frodo had Sam as his sidekick while Gollum was bipolar, perhaps as a result of the slaying of Deagol preying on his mind. Gandalf seemed too aloof to be lonely. Eowyn was pretty lonely after she fell in love with Aragorn and didn't have her love returned, but she presumably got over this when Faramir wooed her. Arwen may have been lonely through all the years that Aragorn was in the wilds, but then she'd apparently been without a beau for a couple of thousand years before that. Saruman became a bit of a desperado with nobody but Wormtongue for company (Radagast had "gone to the birds" probably for similar reasons), and the there were all the ents with no entwives anywhere.
That's by no means exhausted the possibilities - what about Rose Cotton, waiting for Sam to return? Bilbo, however I would omit - he seemed absolutely content with Elrond laying on the hospitality and a final trip to Valinor in the offing. Then there was Celeborn, with Galadriel about to walk out on him and also take the trip to Valinor. It seems to me there was no shortage of loneliness in Middle Earth. Perhaps the loneliest person that relates to the story, though, was Edith Tolkien waiting for her husband to stop writing, come home from the pub, and give her a bit of tlc.

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:


Speaking of lone rangers, who is the loneliest character in The Lord of The
Rings? Naturally Gollum comes to mind but he did have Smeagol for company.
Maybe Gandalf, particularly after he returned in White. Frodo as the ring
bearer? What about Bilbo who basically lived as a hermit in an Elven
conclave after losing the ring? 

? 



? ? ? __________________________________________________________________________________
Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________
List mailing list
List at tolharndor.org
http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



      

From mlk at activ8.net.au  Tue Nov  3 08:23:56 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 08:23:56 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <489935.70142.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CC250F2428724E00BAFBC9A85ED2D9F9@Michael>

I think too that it depends on how one defines loneliness, whether it be of
the physical or spiritual kind. For pure physical loneliness, bereft of
'human' contact, its difficult to think of anyone more lonely than Gollum.
In the absence of this contact he had his precious, and then later his own
shadow. On the spiritual level perhaps Gollum was so far gone that he felt
he wasn't lonely, but this was only a manifestation of his inherent physical
loneliness.  I think if I had to vote I'd be going with Gollum.

As for today my top 4 in order are:

Roman Emperor
Viewed
Shocking
Crime Scene

;-)

Michael

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 6:45 AM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
> 
> Some chose loneliness. They presumably can handle it. It is the
> ones like Frodo, Gollum, the Ents, Rosie Cotton etc who were
> placed in a position of loneliness by the actions of others who
> should be most regarded for their plight. This may not mean
> that they are the most lonely, but in any case there isn't any
> scale of loneliness - you can only measure it by their actions.
> 
> I didn't mention Tom Bombadil. He gave the impression of having
> lived beside the Old Forest for eons. His explanation of
> Goldberry was imho fishy at best (NPI) but it would make sense
> in the consideration of his having been solitary for a very
> long time. I'll stick with my story that she was not the
> daughter of the River Woman (who was imho a fictional character)
> but his daughter by a woman long since dead.
> 
> --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Edwin Scribner wrote:
> > Dark Lords are lonely in the same way that Prime Ministers
> and CEOs are
> > lonely. Loneliness is the price you pay for being at the top.
> They wanted
> > to be at the top and they put up with loneliness (among other
> things)
> > to attain that end.
> 
> Exactly ... so Sauron would be an ideal candidate ... you can't
> rule him? out for the title of "Loneliest Entity in Middle
> Earth" simply because he was a Dark Lord.
> 
> You could then, using the same logic, rule out Gandalf, Saruman
> and co, 'cousins' of Sauron, since they chose lives of exile in
> ME. Aragorn chose to be a lonely ranger .. rule him out ...
> Arwen chose to be an elven spinster .. rule her out .. etc, etc
> etc ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From krenon at y7mail.com  Tue Nov  3 08:40:33 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:40:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <697017.70946.qm@web24613.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <663710.37488.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Funny - I thought of the Balrog, but then left him out. However he may not have been the last of his kind. In Sil there was a note to the effect that "some few balrogs" escaped and hid themselves. I suspect that the tunnels "deep below the deepest delvings of the dwarves" were part of Morgoth's massive underworld fortress and they weren't explored by the victorious armies after the War of Wrath.

As I understand it, 31 October is "all hallows" 1 November "all saints" and 2 November "all souls". Alternatively you can consider the whole thing as Pagan and 31 October called Samhain in the Northern Hemisphere and Beltaine in the south.

31 October is also Ted & Ros's "half wedding anniversary" (we were married on 30 April). We've been married 34-1/2 years.

Cheers

Ted

--- On Mon, 2/11/09, dryad <dryad0404 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


HappyAll Souls Day/Saints Day....
?
I feel that there is someone who is underrated as the loneliest in ME....the poor feriously hot Balrog. The last of its kind and all. Must be very lonely. sigh.
?




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From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov  4 10:12:28 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor]  Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <663710.37488.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <94033.59831.qm@web110206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

http://xkcd.com/657/large/

This diagram was done for the movies rather than the book although much of it is the same as the book. There is a certain tongue in cheek humour about it (for the kind of content on xkcd.com see other entries) but these diagrams have been found useful for other movies.

Ted



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From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 10:24:26 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:24:26 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
In-Reply-To: <CC250F2428724E00BAFBC9A85ED2D9F9@Michael>
References: <489935.70142.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CC250F2428724E00BAFBC9A85ED2D9F9@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911031524g33e8f13enfac6b78aecc09b16@mail.gmail.com>

Two out of four...in the first 3 past the post Sydneysider!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nay to bad lad?
jeff

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

> I think too that it depends on how one defines loneliness, whether it be of
> the physical or spiritual kind. For pure physical loneliness, bereft of
> 'human' contact, its difficult to think of anyone more lonely than Gollum.
> In the absence of this contact he had his precious, and then later his own
> shadow. On the spiritual level perhaps Gollum was so far gone that he felt
> he wasn't lonely, but this was only a manifestation of his inherent
> physical
> loneliness.  I think if I had to vote I'd be going with Gollum.
>
> As for today my top 4 in order are:
>
> Roman Emperor
> Viewed
> Shocking
> Crime Scene
>
> ;-)
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> > Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 6:45 AM
> > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Lone Rangers
> >
>  > Some chose loneliness. They presumably can handle it. It is the
> > ones like Frodo, Gollum, the Ents, Rosie Cotton etc who were
> > placed in a position of loneliness by the actions of others who
> > should be most regarded for their plight. This may not mean
> > that they are the most lonely, but in any case there isn't any
> > scale of loneliness - you can only measure it by their actions.
> >
> > I didn't mention Tom Bombadil. He gave the impression of having
> > lived beside the Old Forest for eons. His explanation of
> > Goldberry was imho fishy at best (NPI) but it would make sense
> > in the consideration of his having been solitary for a very
> > long time. I'll stick with my story that she was not the
> > daughter of the River Woman (who was imho a fictional character)
> > but his daughter by a woman long since dead.
> >
> > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Edwin Scribner wrote:
> > > Dark Lords are lonely in the same way that Prime Ministers
> > and CEOs are
> > > lonely. Loneliness is the price you pay for being at the top.
> > They wanted
> > > to be at the top and they put up with loneliness (among other
> > things)
> > > to attain that end.
> >
> > Exactly ... so Sauron would be an ideal candidate ... you can't
> > rule him  out for the title of "Loneliest Entity in Middle
> > Earth" simply because he was a Dark Lord.
> >
> > You could then, using the same logic, rule out Gandalf, Saruman
> > and co, 'cousins' of Sauron, since they chose lives of exile in
> > ME. Aragorn chose to be a lonely ranger .. rule him out ...
> > Arwen chose to be an elven spinster .. rule her out .. etc, etc
> > etc ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > ___________________
> > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> > Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From pwilkin37 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 10:39:18 2009
From: pwilkin37 at gmail.com (Peter Wilkin)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:39:18 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Richard Harland - for FREE!
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000910291555h57fd93f9l9ba0434511a53ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <793795.31771.qm@web110208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20091030094838.rqlikol00cs4ww44@roots-boots.net>
	<ecc18000910291555h57fd93f9l9ba0434511a53ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8747777b0911031539h7f9218f5q5ce4ade602487ee0@mail.gmail.com>

Only on chapter 3 but gee wiz - it's pretty grim!

P

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nooo ....."The Vicar of Wakefield,' Davy!
> Love Jeff
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 9:48 AM, David Powell <dragon at roots-boots.net
> >wrote:
>
> > Quoting Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com>:
> >
> > Soo ... the Vicar of Dibley .. oh, sorry .. wrong fictional vicar. :)
> >
> > Anyone care to write a review &/or synopsis of the work? Morbing Vyle,
> that
> > is, not Dibley ... tho' if someone wants to write an essay comparing the
> two
> > ... I'd accept it for the eJournal. :)
> >
> > cheers,
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard Harland wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> {font-family = "Arial"}
> >> TT {font-family = "Courier New"}
> >> BLOCKQUOTE.CITE {border-left = solid 2}
> >> BLOCKQUOTE.CITE {padding-left = 0.5em}
> >> BLOCKQUOTE.CITE {margin-left = 0}
> >> BLOCKQUOTE.CITE {margin-top = 0.5em}
> >> SPAN.TABOOHEADER {display: none}
> >>
> >>> Just letting you know - I've made my cult gothic-bizarre novel THE
> >>>
> >> VICAR OF MORBING VYLE available as a FREE pdf download. Just go to my
> >> author site at
> >>
> >> www.richardharland.net
> >>
> >> and there it is on the home page.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hey, I'm really getting into doing free community services!
> >>>
> >>
> >> So if you've ever wondered what this famous/notorious book is like ?
> >>>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Ted
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> >> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> >> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> List mailing list
> >> List at tolharndor.org
> >> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >  Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth 2005,2007,2008
> >     http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
> > The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
> >  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
> >          own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov  4 11:15:40 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Richard Harland - for FREE!
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911031539h7f9218f5q5ce4ade602487ee0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <450410.75354.qm@web110212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I must admit to not having read it so far, but I'm not surprised at your reaction. Richard is a vivid writer, and a passionate reader of his own work. Personally I want to get hold of his novel "Worldshaker" which, as previously mentioned here, looks like a winner.

Are you back at the Uni, Peter? If so, Sydney or somewhere else? 

--- On Wed, 4/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

Only on chapter 3 but gee wiz - it's pretty grim!




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From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov  4 11:38:31 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:38:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911031524g33e8f13enfac6b78aecc09b16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <351405.59263.qm@web110202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I don't recall ever having seen this. Note the date.

http://www.locusmag.com/2002/News/News0401b.html

- Herendil



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From dryad0404 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Nov  4 11:47:40 2009
From: dryad0404 at yahoo.co.uk (dryad)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 00:47:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
In-Reply-To: <351405.59263.qm@web110202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <157096.41023.qm@web24611.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

That was hysterical!? Thanks Ted!
?
I'd like to share this about writing:
?
http://writebadlywell.blogspot.com/
?
Elise in Florida

--- On Tue, 3/11/09, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:


From: Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com>
Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
To: "Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society" <list at tolharndor.org>
Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 7:38 PM


I don't recall ever having seen this. Note the date.

http://www.locusmag.com/2002/News/News0401b.html

- Herendil



? ? ? __________________________________________________________________________________
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List mailing list
List at tolharndor.org
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From pwilkin37 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 12:27:38 2009
From: pwilkin37 at gmail.com (Peter Wilkin)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:27:38 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Richard Harland - for FREE!
In-Reply-To: <450410.75354.qm@web110212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <8747777b0911031539h7f9218f5q5ce4ade602487ee0@mail.gmail.com>
	<450410.75354.qm@web110212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8747777b0911031727l65d9c739gadba2c68e7d29eca@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ted,

Is worldshaker his most successful novel?

I'm at Sydney doing a phd (on poetry and science in Francis Bacon's
philosophy). Actually - I should have mentioned this to the list much
earlier - but I came across a pretty big coincidence a few months ago when I
met the only other phd candidate I know who is also looking at Francis
Bacon. After talking to him it turned out that he had done his honours
thesis on Tolkien as well!! Who would have thought - there's not a huge
connection between the two.

P



On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> I must admit to not having read it so far, but I'm not surprised at your
> reaction. Richard is a vivid writer, and a passionate reader of his own
> work. Personally I want to get hold of his novel "Worldshaker" which, as
> previously mentioned here, looks like a winner.
>
> Are you back at the Uni, Peter? If so, Sydney or somewhere else?
>
> --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Only on chapter 3 but gee wiz - it's pretty grim!
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov  4 13:39:13 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:39:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Richard Harland - for FREE!
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911031727l65d9c739gadba2c68e7d29eca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <327889.26008.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi Peter. I wouldn't say that of Worldshaker yet, but I think it will become his most successful. He had at least ten books published before that. Richard worked at the University of Wollongong until 1999 or thereabouts, at which time he quit his "day job" to become a full time writer - a course of action that is always risky unless you're Jo Rowling, Stephen King or .. well you get the idea. I think that Worldshaker will remove any misgivings he might have had over that decision. Should I tell you more? Actually Michael should do that - he's read it.

Since I now know (what I suspected) that you are in English at Sydney Uni, I'll mention the matter that came up with Richard's email to me about the Vicar of Morbing Vyle. One of the recipients was Kim Selling. Presumably, if you didn't know her back in your honours year you know her now. Kim was one of the two organisers of the "Fantastic Fictions" seminar in September 2002. In 2003 she came to the first of the "Magic Casements" spec fic festivals at the NSW Writers' Centre. That was about the time she finished her PhD on fantasy writing, and then took a position at a university in Japan. I had not heard of her from then until I saw the name on Richard's letter. Say hi to her from me, would you? I hope she remembers me.

--- On Wed, 4/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ted,

Is worldshaker his most successful novel?

I'm at Sydney doing a phd (on poetry and science in Francis Bacon's
philosophy). Actually - I should have mentioned this to the list much
earlier - but I came across a pretty big coincidence a few months ago when I
met the only other phd candidate I know who is also looking at Francis
Bacon. After talking to him it turned out that he had done his honours
thesis on Tolkien as well!! Who would have thought - there's not a huge
connection between the two.

P




      __________________________________________________________________________________
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From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov  4 13:54:21 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:54:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
In-Reply-To: <157096.41023.qm@web24611.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <554505.89485.qm@web110210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Elise. I was thinking of posting it (the blog reference) to the (Brisbane based) Vision-writers mail list which I'm subbed to but I have a vague recollection of something like that having come up in the past. That guy is clearly after a Bulwer-Lytton award, which awards eminate, iirc, from the University of San Jos?. Coincidentally I went to that Californian city in 2002 and participated in the World Science Fiction Convention of that year, and this year the World Fantasy Convention was held there (but I wasn't there).

"It was a dark and stormy night. Sam had just put the cat out and was retiring to bed when Rosie said ...."

--- On Wed, 4/11/09, dryad <dryad0404 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

That was hysterical!? Thanks Ted!
?
I'd like to share this about writing:
?
http://writebadlywell.blogspot.com/
?
Elise in Florida





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
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From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 09:22:01 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:22:01 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <94033.59831.qm@web110206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <663710.37488.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<94033.59831.qm@web110206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911051422x5b308364ieee4ffe60a8da910@mail.gmail.com>

to the dear list,
'The Berggeist Letters to Angus'.....of long history.......David is a part
of it too...is almost finished being edited by Christina...err my editor.
Zo ....soon she will place it and I have to wonder if I can publish the
bloody thing.
My latest peice.......The Water, the Water is going apace too......@ 42,000
words..
and that is the weather report from der southland.....fine und a tiny bit of
chill for the start......soon finer I think.
My water tanks are still full.
love jeff

From pwilkin37 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 09:56:17 2009
From: pwilkin37 at gmail.com (Peter Wilkin)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:56:17 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Richard Harland - for FREE!
In-Reply-To: <327889.26008.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <8747777b0911031727l65d9c739gadba2c68e7d29eca@mail.gmail.com>
	<327889.26008.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8747777b0911051456w6f001bc8r27ed5c601d6edc22@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, I don't think I've ever run into Kim at uni, but if I do I'll pass
on your greetings.

P

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> Hi Peter. I wouldn't say that of Worldshaker yet, but I think it will
> become his most successful. He had at least ten books published before that.
> Richard worked at the University of Wollongong until 1999 or thereabouts, at
> which time he quit his "day job" to become a full time writer - a course of
> action that is always risky unless you're Jo Rowling, Stephen King or ..
> well you get the idea. I think that Worldshaker will remove any misgivings
> he might have had over that decision. Should I tell you more? Actually
> Michael should do that - he's read it.
>
> Since I now know (what I suspected) that you are in English at Sydney Uni,
> I'll mention the matter that came up with Richard's email to me about the
> Vicar of Morbing Vyle. One of the recipients was Kim Selling. Presumably, if
> you didn't know her back in your honours year you know her now. Kim was one
> of the two organisers of the "Fantastic Fictions" seminar in September 2002.
> In 2003 she came to the first of the "Magic Casements" spec fic festivals at
> the NSW Writers' Centre. That was about the time she finished her PhD on
> fantasy writing, and then took a position at a university in Japan. I had
> not heard of her from then until I saw the name on Richard's letter. Say hi
> to her from me, would you? I hope she remembers me.
>
> --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ted,
>
> Is worldshaker his most successful novel?
>
> I'm at Sydney doing a phd (on poetry and science in Francis Bacon's
> philosophy). Actually - I should have mentioned this to the list much
> earlier - but I came across a pretty big coincidence a few months ago when
> I
> met the only other phd candidate I know who is also looking at Francis
> Bacon. After talking to him it turned out that he had done his honours
> thesis on Tolkien as well!! Who would have thought - there's not a huge
> connection between the two.
>
> P
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Fri Nov  6 13:41:15 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:41:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Richard Harland - for FREE!
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911051456w6f001bc8r27ed5c601d6edc22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648906.49257.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I'm beginning to wonder whether Richard just hasn't ever caught up with the fact that she's gone from there. If so she might still be in Japan.

--- On Fri, 6/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, I don't think I've ever run into Kim at uni, but if I do I'll pass
on your greetings.




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From krenon at y7mail.com  Fri Nov  6 15:59:56 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 20:59:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Kim (Liv) Selling is On Topic here
In-Reply-To: <648906.49257.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <563694.6502.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I can't find any evidence of Kim Selling being around Sydney Uni, but I did find that she made her PhD thesis into a book. Here are the particulars from a website:

------------------------------------------------

"Why Are Critics Afraid of Dragons? - Understanding Genre Fantasy" 

Book Description:

Fantasy literature is hugely popular amongst readers worldwide yet has long been shunned by literary critics. Why Are Critics Afraid of Dragons? examines the reasons for this neglect, and presents a new critical paradigm for understanding and valuing genre fantasy on its own terms. The book answers questions such as, what is the relationship between fantasy and medieval romance? Why do some critics see fantasy as a cult? Is there a link between fantasy and environmentalism? By examining the social contexts of fantasy from fairytales to the mass-market genre, the book draws innovative conclusions about fantasys place in the field of literature and its relevance to contemporary audiences. It is the first study of its kind, combining critiques of fantasy from Coleridge to Tolkien, Todorov and Le Guin with cultural criticism and ecofeminism, reconstructing fantasy as a complex field of cultural production. 

It presents a substantial contribution to theories of fantasy literature, offering historical perspectives and critical insights into the scholarly heritage of fantasy, and will be a useful resource to students and researchers of popular culture and appeal to a general readership.

Publisher: VDM Verlag 
Author: Kim Selling, 
Language: English 
ISBN: 3836497859 
EAN: 9783836497855 
No. of Pages: 200 
Publish Date: 2008-08-31 
Binding: Paperback 

The cost, something like AU$160, seems very high for a modest 200 page paperback.

This book was presented as being derived from her PhD thesis which was presented in 2005. The thesis was called "Nature, Reason and the Legacy of Romanticism: Constructing Genre Fantasy", and the author is "Kim Liv Selling" (presumably she dropped the "Liv" in order to westernise her name a bit - she speaks without a trace of oriental accent). Fortunately, the University of Sydney allows a d/l of her thesis free, subject to the usual constraints about its use. 

To download, go to

http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/2565

Information provided:

Title:? Nature, reason and the legacy of romanticism : constructing genre fantasy 
Authors:? Selling, Kim Liv 
Issue Date:? 2005? 
Description:? Item scanned for the purposes of Document Delivery
This thesis was digitised for the purposes of Document Delivery. It has been made available 

on open access by Sydney eScholarship and may only be used for the purposes of research and study. Where possible, Sydney eScholarship will try to notify the author of this work. If you have any inquiries or issues regarding this work being made available please contact the Sydney eScholarship Repository Coordinator - ses at library.usyd.edu.au 
URI:? http://hdl.handle.net/2123/2565 
Appears in Collections: Theses - Interlibrary Loans and Document Delivery 

I've just glanced at it, but it's got many Tolkien references.

--- On Fri, 6/11/09, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder whether Richard just hasn't ever caught up with the fact that she's gone from there. If so she might still be in Japan.

--- On Fri, 6/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, I don't think I've ever run into Kim at uni, but if I do I'll pass
on your greetings.




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From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 09:03:30 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:03:30 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
In-Reply-To: <351405.59263.qm@web110202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000911031524g33e8f13enfac6b78aecc09b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<351405.59263.qm@web110202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911061403w3f2440b3t455690362a813dcc@mail.gmail.com>

Merde!
jeff

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> I don't recall ever having seen this. Note the date.
>
> http://www.locusmag.com/2002/News/News0401b.html
>
> - Herendil
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From shadowfax_29 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov  7 13:20:31 2009
From: shadowfax_29 at hotmail.com (Jennifer W)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:20:31 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911061403w3f2440b3t455690362a813dcc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecc18000911031524g33e8f13enfac6b78aecc09b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<351405.59263.qm@web110202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY122-W75234B397C39B96D6A4BFE2AE0@phx.gbl>


oh dear, hehe, thank goodness for the date :)



> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:03:30 +1100
> From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com
> To: list at tolharndor.org
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Grand Plans for LotR :)
> 
> Merde!
> jeff
> 
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I don't recall ever having seen this. Note the date.
> >
> > http://www.locusmag.com/2002/News/News0401b.html
> >
> > - Herendil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  __________________________________________________________________________________
> > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> > Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
 		 	   		  
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From mlk at activ8.net.au  Sat Nov  7 17:32:14 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:32:14 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <94033.59831.qm@web110206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <351BA2EA7A5842BE8E800BA9250BF7E3@Michael>

Very good. What's Primer?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 November 2009 10:12 AM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
> 
> http://xkcd.com/657/large/
> 
> This diagram was done for the movies rather than the book
> although much of it is the same as the book. There is a certain
> tongue in cheek humour about it (for the kind of content on
> xkcd.com see other entries) but these diagrams have been found
> useful for other movies.
> 
> Ted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From dragon at roots-boots.net  Sat Nov  7 22:24:57 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:24:57 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <351BA2EA7A5842BE8E800BA9250BF7E3@Michael>
References: <351BA2EA7A5842BE8E800BA9250BF7E3@Michael>
Message-ID: <4AF55909.4090708@roots-boots.net>

Michael Kennedy wrote:
> Very good. What's Primer?

I had the same reaction .. and have no idea.

cheers,
David


>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
>> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
>> Sent: Wednesday, 4 November 2009 10:12 AM
>> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
>> Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
>>
>> http://xkcd.com/657/large/
>>
>> This diagram was done for the movies rather than the book
>> although much of it is the same as the book. There is a certain
>> tongue in cheek humour about it (for the kind of content on
>> xkcd.com see other entries) but these diagrams have been found
>> useful for other movies.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>> ___________________
>> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
>> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> List mailing list
>> List at tolharndor.org
>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

-- 
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      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov  8 06:47:45 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:47:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <4AF55909.4090708@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <683967.73491.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

According to the Wikipedia:

Primer is a 2004 American science fiction 
film about the accidental discovery of time travel. The film was written, directed and 
produced by Shane 
Carruth, a mathematician and a former engineer, and was completed on a 
budget of $7,000.[1]
Primer is of note for its extremely low budget, experimental plot 
structure and complex technical dialogue, which Carruth chose not to 'dumb down' 
for the sake of his audience. One reviewer said that "anybody who claims [to] 
fully understand what's going on in Primer after seeing it just once is 
either a savant or a liar."[2] The film 
collected the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance in 2004 before securing a 
limited release in US cinemas, and has since gained a cult following.

--- On Sat, 7/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:


Michael Kennedy wrote:
> Very good. What's Primer?

I had the same reaction .. and have no idea.

cheers,
David





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
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From dragon at roots-boots.net  Sun Nov  8 09:36:04 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:36:04 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <683967.73491.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <683967.73491.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AF5F654.5020104@roots-boots.net>

Edwin Scribner wrote:
> According to the Wikipedia:
>
> Primer is a 2004 American science fiction ...

Explains the graph of the movie then!

cheers,
David


> film about the accidental discovery of time travel. The film was written, directed and
> produced by Shane
> Carruth, a mathematician and a former engineer, and was completed on a
> budget of $7,000.[1]
> Primer is of note for its extremely low budget, experimental plot
> structure and complex technical dialogue, which Carruth chose not to 'dumb down'
> for the sake of his audience. One reviewer said that "anybody who claims [to]
> fully understand what's going on in Primer after seeing it just once is
> either a savant or a liar."[2] The film
> collected the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance in 2004 before securing a
> limited release in US cinemas, and has since gained a cult following.
>
> --- On Sat, 7/11/09, Marayong<dragon at roots-boots.net>  wrote:
>
>
> Michael Kennedy wrote:
>> Very good. What's Primer?
>
> I had the same reaction .. and have no idea.
>
> cheers,
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>        __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

-- 
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      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov  8 15:05:40 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:05:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Movie Character Interactions
In-Reply-To: <4AF5F654.5020104@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <252931.63826.qm@web110210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Not quite, I think. The subject - playing around with time travel, makes the graph more likely (and in any case the implication of the graph to me is that nobody knows where the characters are at any given time).

--- On Sun, 8/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:


Edwin Scribner wrote:
> According to the Wikipedia:
>
> Primer is a 2004 American science fiction ...

Explains the graph of the movie then!





      __________________________________________________________________________________
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From dragon at roots-boots.net  Tue Nov 10 18:06:56 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:06:56 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
Message-ID: <4AF91110.7010905@roots-boots.net>

G'day all,

Anyone heard of this chap? he's tried to subscribe to the list twice. 
Each time I've tried to email him to check his bonafides and I've gotten 
no reply.

cheers,
David
-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Tue Nov 10 19:17:25 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:17:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <4AF91110.7010905@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <413007.18519.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Unless someone comes up with a story that justifies his subbing, I'll accept your decision as the right one (your decision being, I presume, not to sub him).

--- On Tue, 10/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:

G'day all,

Anyone heard of this chap? he's tried to subscribe to the list twice. Each time I've tried to email him to check his bonafides and I've gotten no reply.





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From mlk at activ8.net.au  Wed Nov 11 08:59:36 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:59:36 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <413007.18519.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4097E0C526AA4C28BE61A306C9D5DB94@Michael>

Never heard of him. It's certainly an unusual name, and the fact that 'he'
doesn't reply to your e-mails suggests there may be good reason.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:17 PM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
> 
> Unless someone comes up with a story that justifies his subbing,
> I'll accept your decision as the right one (your decision being,
> I presume, not to sub him).
> 
> --- On Tue, 10/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:
> 
> G'day all,
> 
> Anyone heard of this chap? he's tried to subscribe to the list
> twice. Each time I've tried to email him to check his bonafides
> and I've gotten no reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From pwilkin37 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 10:32:11 2009
From: pwilkin37 at gmail.com (Peter Wilkin)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:32:11 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
Message-ID: <8747777b0911101532n70bdf0f7pab4ec62cb8537b45@mail.gmail.com>

A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it was a real
sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C. Clarke saying
that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the Rings*". Has
anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?

I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going. The characters
seemed two-dimensional and the writing style was not fantastic. The whole
created world was impressive though. Then again, people have made these
exact criticism of LotR!

P

From dragon at roots-boots.net  Wed Nov 11 11:54:01 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (David Powell)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:54:01 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <4097E0C526AA4C28BE61A306C9D5DB94@Michael>
References: <4097E0C526AA4C28BE61A306C9D5DB94@Michael>
Message-ID: <20091111115401.ietwytuvegwccg4w@roots-boots.net>

Quoting Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au>:

> Never heard of him. It's certainly an unusual name, and the fact that 'he'
> doesn't reply to your e-mails suggests there may be good reason.

I assume he's found the list via the website and that via google. I've  
emailed him twice saying the list is a closed list but new members are  
welcome, but he would have to establish why we'd let him in uninvited.  
I put it a lot more politer than that. :)  He's tried to sub to the  
list twice and each time I've sent an email saying "tell me why I  
should let you in" ... and no reply. The first time I waited a week  
and then rejected the application with the note "Rejected due to  
unwillingness to provide additional information when queried by email"  
or words to that effect. Within an hour he tried to sub again via the  
list mail-manager. I sent him another "please explain" email. I'll  
wait a few more days and if I've gotten no reply then I will reject  
him again .. and block him from trying again. The email address  
appears valid, but he's not replying to me.

cheers,
David

>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
>> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
>> Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:17 PM
>> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
>> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
>>
>> Unless someone comes up with a story that justifies his subbing,
>> I'll accept your decision as the right one (your decision being,
>> I presume, not to sub him).
>>
>> --- On Tue, 10/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net> wrote:
>>
>> G'day all,
>>
>> Anyone heard of this chap? he's tried to subscribe to the list
>> twice. Each time I've tried to email him to check his bonafides
>> and I've gotten no reply.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>> ___________________
>> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
>> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
>> _______________________________________________
>> List mailing list
>> List at tolharndor.org
>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>



-- 
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      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies




From dragon at roots-boots.net  Wed Nov 11 17:40:56 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:40:56 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911101532n70bdf0f7pab4ec62cb8537b45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8747777b0911101532n70bdf0f7pab4ec62cb8537b45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AFA5C78.7080605@roots-boots.net>

Peter Wilkin wrote:

I read Dune many years ago .. decades even. And tried to read some of 
the sequels .. mostly because of ACC's recommendation that you mentioned.

You have to be careful when reading such recommendations - you have no 
idea how much out of context it has been taken, nor just what the critic 
actually means. Did ACC mean that Dune was comparable to LotR in scope, 
quality, readability, characterisation, depth and so on and so on? or 
did he actually mean that Dune could be compared to LotR with some of 
those characteristics, but not all? For instance, a trite but true 
comparison of the two works is that both are long, very long. Especially 
given that at the time both were written SF&F novels tended to be a lot, 
LOT smaller. Big chunky novels tend to be more the norm today but back 
in the 60's and before they were *very* rare.

Having said all that ... I did find that Dune (both the book & the 
series) and LotR (the extended book, ie the series) were very comparable 
in several ways. Firstly the trite sense in that both were very long 
works. But also in that a lot of text was devoted to making quite real a 
very elaborate and detailed world. From what I hear, Herbert also had 
copious notes about his world, some of which were subsequently 
published, I'd daresay. Then again, any half decent SF&F writer would 
have copious background material that was not included in the book but 
created to allow the writer to write a coherent story, especially if 
there were more than one volume. Both Dune & LotR could be put into that 
category of fiction called "epic", in that both the created world and 
the story itself are writ on a large canvas.

So in all that sense, yes, Dune is comparable to LotR .. and back when 
Dune was written, there was very little else in the genre that had the 
same scope as Dune & LotR.

However ... on the other hand .. there were areas in which the two works 
did not compare. Of course here one does enter the realm of personal 
opinion .. one persons treasure is another's trash. Some poor deluded 
people don't like LotR after all. Incomprehensible maybe, but true. My 
own view of Dune? The characterisations were poor and unbelievable, the 
plot flowed like, well, a brick (ie: it didn't flow at all). Reading the 
book was a labour. Not a labour of love, just a labour. A painful one. I 
did manage to finish the first volume .. and several chapters of the 2nd 
book .. before giving up. The plot meandered, it was hard to follow. It 
was, well, pointless. It was hard to read .. and there was little 
enjoyment to be had for that hard work.

As you say, tough going reading the book.

Still ... some liked the book ... and read all the sequels. Go figure!

And there there was the movie starring Sting. I'll label that as 
"curious" and run away before any closet Dune fans out there decide to 
take a shot at me. :)

cheers,
David


> A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it was a real
> sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C. Clarke saying
> that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the Rings*". Has
> anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?
>
> I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going. The characters
> seemed two-dimensional and the writing style was not fantastic. The whole
> created world was impressive though. Then again, people have made these
> exact criticism of LotR!
>
> P
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov 11 17:42:47 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:42:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
Message-ID: <76840.26676.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

It is considered a sf classic - I think it won a Hugo and a Nebula and that is about the highest compliment a sf novel can be paid. However I don't think it can be compared with LotR and if Arthur C Clarke said that he was probably trying to be nice to Frank Herbert. Herbert went on to write several sequels to Dune which were afaik all rated as not nearly as good as the original (despite this his son continued writing Dune sequels after his death).

You could, I think, legitimately compare Dune with Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land", but I can't think of anything else that would be a good comparison. David might think of a title or two. Certainly there are other sf novels that involve themselves with religion.

Btw, whenever the question of what sf to read comes up on a sf mail list there are always several people who trot out a list of 100+ titles.

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com>
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
To: "Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society" <list at tolharndor.org>
Received: Wednesday, 11 November, 2009, 10:32 AM

A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it was a real
sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C. Clarke saying
that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the Rings*". Has
anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?

I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going. The characters
seemed two-dimensional and the writing style
 was not fantastic. The whole
created world was impressive though. Then again, people have made these
exact criticism of LotR!

P





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From mlk at activ8.net.au  Wed Nov 11 20:17:31 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:17:31 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20091111115401.ietwytuvegwccg4w@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <4CEB75A77C364278B4F4C3533B9AC171@Michael>

A quick Google search seems to show a real Sergio Wippel in existence in
Brazil no less. It would still be odd, perhaps more so, if he was real.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of David Powell
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 11:54 AM
> To: list at tolharndor.org
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
> 
> Quoting Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au>:
> 
> > Never heard of him. It's certainly an unusual name, and the
> fact that 'he'
> > doesn't reply to your e-mails suggests there may be good
> reason.
> 
> I assume he's found the list via the website and that via
> google. I've
> emailed him twice saying the list is a closed list but new
> members are
> welcome, but he would have to establish why we'd let him in
> uninvited.
> I put it a lot more politer than that. :)  He's tried to sub to
> the
> list twice and each time I've sent an email saying "tell me why
> I
> should let you in" ... and no reply. The first time I waited a
> week
> and then rejected the application with the note "Rejected due
> to
> unwillingness to provide additional information when queried by
> email"
> or words to that effect. Within an hour he tried to sub again
> via the
> list mail-manager. I sent him another "please explain" email.
> I'll
> wait a few more days and if I've gotten no reply then I will
> reject
> him again .. and block him from trying again. The email address
> appears valid, but he's not replying to me.
> 
> cheers,
> David
> 
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> >> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> >> Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:17 PM
> >> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> >> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
> >>
> >> Unless someone comes up with a story that justifies his
> subbing,
> >> I'll accept your decision as the right one (your decision
> being,
> >> I presume, not to sub him).
> >>
> >> --- On Tue, 10/11/09, Marayong <dragon at roots-boots.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> G'day all,
> >>
> >> Anyone heard of this chap? he's tried to subscribe to the
> list
> >> twice. Each time I've tried to email him to check his
> bonafides
> >> and I've gotten no reply.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> _______________________________________________________________
> >> ___________________
> >> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> >> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> List mailing list
> >> List at tolharndor.org
> >> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
>   Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth
> 2005,2007,2008
>       http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
> The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for
> it
>   to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose
> its
>            own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From mlk at activ8.net.au  Wed Nov 11 21:30:51 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:30:51 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <4AFA5C78.7080605@roots-boots.net>
Message-ID: <DBDA9FEFAEBB4EF5A5793E94D06B2ABA@Michael>

I've read DUNE too and it never struck me as all-encompassing like LoTR did.
I did enjoy it though.

I've read plenty of other stories that I'd rate higher than Dune on the
'similar to the LoTR' scale. The Gormenghast Trilogy, Duncton Wood, and the
Thomas Covenant Chronicles come to mind.     

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Marayong
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 5:41 PM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> 
> Peter Wilkin wrote:
> 
> I read Dune many years ago .. decades even. And tried to read
> some of
> the sequels .. mostly because of ACC's recommendation that you
> mentioned.
> 
> You have to be careful when reading such recommendations - you
> have no
> idea how much out of context it has been taken, nor just what
> the critic
> actually means. Did ACC mean that Dune was comparable to LotR
> in scope,
> quality, readability, characterisation, depth and so on and so
> on? or
> did he actually mean that Dune could be compared to LotR with
> some of
> those characteristics, but not all? For instance, a trite but
> true
> comparison of the two works is that both are long, very long.
> Especially
> given that at the time both were written SF&F novels tended to
> be a lot,
> LOT smaller. Big chunky novels tend to be more the norm today
> but back
> in the 60's and before they were *very* rare.
> 
> Having said all that ... I did find that Dune (both the book &
> the
> series) and LotR (the extended book, ie the series) were very
> comparable
> in several ways. Firstly the trite sense in that both were very
> long
> works. But also in that a lot of text was devoted to making
> quite real a
> very elaborate and detailed world. From what I hear, Herbert
> also had
> copious notes about his world, some of which were subsequently
> published, I'd daresay. Then again, any half decent SF&F writer
> would
> have copious background material that was not included in the
> book but
> created to allow the writer to write a coherent story,
> especially if
> there were more than one volume. Both Dune & LotR could be put
> into that
> category of fiction called "epic", in that both the created
> world and
> the story itself are writ on a large canvas.
> 
> So in all that sense, yes, Dune is comparable to LotR .. and
> back when
> Dune was written, there was very little else in the genre that
> had the
> same scope as Dune & LotR.
> 
> However ... on the other hand .. there were areas in which the
> two works
> did not compare. Of course here one does enter the realm of
> personal
> opinion .. one persons treasure is another's trash. Some poor
> deluded
> people don't like LotR after all. Incomprehensible maybe, but
> true. My
> own view of Dune? The characterisations were poor and
> unbelievable, the
> plot flowed like, well, a brick (ie: it didn't flow at all).
> Reading the
> book was a labour. Not a labour of love, just a labour. A
> painful one. I
> did manage to finish the first volume .. and several chapters
> of the 2nd
> book .. before giving up. The plot meandered, it was hard to
> follow. It
> was, well, pointless. It was hard to read .. and there was
> little
> enjoyment to be had for that hard work.
> 
> As you say, tough going reading the book.
> 
> Still ... some liked the book ... and read all the sequels. Go
> figure!
> 
> And there there was the movie starring Sting. I'll label that
> as
> "curious" and run away before any closet Dune fans out there
> decide to
> take a shot at me. :)
> 
> cheers,
> David
> 
> 
> > A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it
> was a real
> > sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C.
> Clarke saying
> > that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the
> Rings*". Has
> > anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?
> >
> > I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going.
> The characters
> > seemed two-dimensional and the writing style was not
> fantastic. The whole
> > created world was impressive though. Then again, people have
> made these
> > exact criticism of LotR!
> >
> > P
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> 
> --
> Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history &
> more!
>       http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
> The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for
> it
>   to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose
> its
>            own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
> 
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From dragon at roots-boots.net  Wed Nov 11 22:16:27 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:16:27 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <4CEB75A77C364278B4F4C3533B9AC171@Michael>
References: <4CEB75A77C364278B4F4C3533B9AC171@Michael>
Message-ID: <4AFA9D0B.2010708@roots-boots.net>

Mr Wippel's email domain is zeusmail.org. Whois says that it is based in 
Holland and the domain is registered by Directi Internet Solutions, who 
apparently have been criticised a lot for a connection with malware and 
fishing sites. Fishing as in the nasty sort, not a hook & line in water.

Contact details listed by whois for zeusmail.org are all invalid (which 
is illegal) and all point to Privacyprotect.org instead. Under 
international law, anyone registering a domain has to provide a valid 
phone, email and postal address to the registrar and those details are 
available via a whois search (I'm listed for the Tol harndor site). 
Supplying invalid details is illegal and almost guarantees that the site 
in question is quite dodgy.

Mr Wippel's email address is valid, but his email is with a dodgy and 
technically illegally operating domain.

'Nuff said. I'm rejecting the application and marking it permanent.

cheers,
David



Michael Kennedy wrote:
> A quick Google search seems to show a real Sergio Wippel in existence in
> Brazil no less. It would still be odd, perhaps more so, if he was real.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
>> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of David Powell
>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 11:54 AM
>> To: list at tolharndor.org
>> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
>>
>> Quoting Michael Kennedy<mlk at activ8.net.au>:
>>
>>> Never heard of him. It's certainly an unusual name, and the
>> fact that 'he'
>>> doesn't reply to your e-mails suggests there may be good
>> reason.
>>
>> I assume he's found the list via the website and that via
>> google. I've
>> emailed him twice saying the list is a closed list but new
>> members are
>> welcome, but he would have to establish why we'd let him in
>> uninvited.
>> I put it a lot more politer than that. :)  He's tried to sub to
>> the
>> list twice and each time I've sent an email saying "tell me why
>> I
>> should let you in" ... and no reply. The first time I waited a
>> week
>> and then rejected the application with the note "Rejected due
>> to
>> unwillingness to provide additional information when queried by
>> email"
>> or words to that effect. Within an hour he tried to sub again
>> via the
>> list mail-manager. I sent him another "please explain" email.
>> I'll
>> wait a few more days and if I've gotten no reply then I will
>> reject
>> him again .. and block him from trying again. The email address
>> appears valid, but he's not replying to me.
>>
>> cheers,
>> David
>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
>>>> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:17 PM
>>>> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
>>>> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
>>>>
>>>> Unless someone comes up with a story that justifies his
>> subbing,
>>>> I'll accept your decision as the right one (your decision
>> being,
>>>> I presume, not to sub him).
>>>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 10/11/09, Marayong<dragon at roots-boots.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> G'day all,
>>>>
>>>> Anyone heard of this chap? he's tried to subscribe to the
>> list
>>>> twice. Each time I've tried to email him to check his
>> bonafides
>>>> and I've gotten no reply.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>>>> ___________________
>>>> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
>>>> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> List mailing list
>>>> List at tolharndor.org
>>>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List mailing list
>>> List at tolharndor.org
>>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>    Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth
>> 2005,2007,2008
>>        http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
>> The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for
>> it
>>    to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose
>> its
>>             own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List mailing list
>> List at tolharndor.org
>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From pwilkin37 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 08:49:26 2009
From: pwilkin37 at gmail.com (Peter Wilkin)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:49:26 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <DBDA9FEFAEBB4EF5A5793E94D06B2ABA@Michael>
References: <4AFA5C78.7080605@roots-boots.net>
	<DBDA9FEFAEBB4EF5A5793E94D06B2ABA@Michael>
Message-ID: <8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>

That's interesting, I had pretty much the same response as David - poor
characters, clunky plot, and the writing style mediocre. Actually in a
strange way Herbert reminds me a little of David Eddings - even though there
are a bunch of different characters they all seem to have the same
personality (i.e. the personality of the author). In this case a bland kind
of machiavellianism. The world is obviously very carefully thought out, but
it's a shame when the literary execution can't back it up. I'm told that the
sequals written by Herbert's son are much worse.

I'd definitely rate Gormenghast much higher, though I haven't read Duncton
Wood or the first series of Thomas Covenant (read book I of the second
series). Gormenghast is definitely among my favourite books.

Ted, I'm not surprised about sf fans listing their top 100 books. I'm
actually interested in reading some (good) sci-fi, if anyone can recommend
(no more than five) favourites. I can make an educated guess that the
incomparable Larry Niven will feature in your list Ted?

Cheers,
Peter

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

> I've read DUNE too and it never struck me as all-encompassing like LoTR
> did.
> I did enjoy it though.
>
> I've read plenty of other stories that I'd rate higher than Dune on the
> 'similar to the LoTR' scale. The Gormenghast Trilogy, Duncton Wood, and the
> Thomas Covenant Chronicles come to mind.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Marayong
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 5:41 PM
> > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> >
> > Peter Wilkin wrote:
> >
> > I read Dune many years ago .. decades even. And tried to read
> > some of
> > the sequels .. mostly because of ACC's recommendation that you
> > mentioned.
> >
> > You have to be careful when reading such recommendations - you
> > have no
> > idea how much out of context it has been taken, nor just what
> > the critic
> > actually means. Did ACC mean that Dune was comparable to LotR
> > in scope,
> > quality, readability, characterisation, depth and so on and so
> > on? or
> > did he actually mean that Dune could be compared to LotR with
> > some of
> > those characteristics, but not all? For instance, a trite but
> > true
> > comparison of the two works is that both are long, very long.
> > Especially
> > given that at the time both were written SF&F novels tended to
> > be a lot,
> > LOT smaller. Big chunky novels tend to be more the norm today
> > but back
> > in the 60's and before they were *very* rare.
> >
> > Having said all that ... I did find that Dune (both the book &
> > the
> > series) and LotR (the extended book, ie the series) were very
> > comparable
> > in several ways. Firstly the trite sense in that both were very
> > long
> > works. But also in that a lot of text was devoted to making
> > quite real a
> > very elaborate and detailed world. From what I hear, Herbert
> > also had
> > copious notes about his world, some of which were subsequently
> > published, I'd daresay. Then again, any half decent SF&F writer
> > would
> > have copious background material that was not included in the
> > book but
> > created to allow the writer to write a coherent story,
> > especially if
> > there were more than one volume. Both Dune & LotR could be put
> > into that
> > category of fiction called "epic", in that both the created
> > world and
> > the story itself are writ on a large canvas.
> >
> > So in all that sense, yes, Dune is comparable to LotR .. and
> > back when
> > Dune was written, there was very little else in the genre that
> > had the
> > same scope as Dune & LotR.
> >
> > However ... on the other hand .. there were areas in which the
> > two works
> > did not compare. Of course here one does enter the realm of
> > personal
> > opinion .. one persons treasure is another's trash. Some poor
> > deluded
> > people don't like LotR after all. Incomprehensible maybe, but
> > true. My
> > own view of Dune? The characterisations were poor and
> > unbelievable, the
> > plot flowed like, well, a brick (ie: it didn't flow at all).
> > Reading the
> > book was a labour. Not a labour of love, just a labour. A
> > painful one. I
> > did manage to finish the first volume .. and several chapters
> > of the 2nd
> > book .. before giving up. The plot meandered, it was hard to
> > follow. It
> > was, well, pointless. It was hard to read .. and there was
> > little
> > enjoyment to be had for that hard work.
> >
> > As you say, tough going reading the book.
> >
> > Still ... some liked the book ... and read all the sequels. Go
> > figure!
> >
> > And there there was the movie starring Sting. I'll label that
> > as
> > "curious" and run away before any closet Dune fans out there
> > decide to
> > take a shot at me. :)
> >
> > cheers,
> > David
> >
> >
> > > A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it
> > was a real
> > > sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C.
> > Clarke saying
> > > that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the
> > Rings*". Has
> > > anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?
> > >
> > > I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going.
> > The characters
> > > seemed two-dimensional and the writing style was not
> > fantastic. The whole
> > > created world was impressive though. Then again, people have
> > made these
> > > exact criticism of LotR!
> > >
> > > P
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > List mailing list
> > > List at tolharndor.org
> > > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history &
> > more!
> >       http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
> > The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for
> > it
> >   to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose
> > its
> >            own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 09:01:37 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:01:37 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AFA5C78.7080605@roots-boots.net>
	<DBDA9FEFAEBB4EF5A5793E94D06B2ABA@Michael>
	<8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911111401m7dcbc946ga1569bbfb0ef76a9@mail.gmail.com>

Three Cheers , not for the Paraclete but the Ghormenghast
Trlogy........there will never be another book....or the illustrations like
it........from Yarrawonga........38 expected here today
jeff

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's interesting, I had pretty much the same response as David - poor
> characters, clunky plot, and the writing style mediocre. Actually in a
> strange way Herbert reminds me a little of David Eddings - even though
> there
> are a bunch of different characters they all seem to have the same
> personality (i.e. the personality of the author). In this case a bland kind
> of machiavellianism. The world is obviously very carefully thought out, but
> it's a shame when the literary execution can't back it up. I'm told that
> the
> sequals written by Herbert's son are much worse.
>
> I'd definitely rate Gormenghast much higher, though I haven't read Duncton
> Wood or the first series of Thomas Covenant (read book I of the second
> series). Gormenghast is definitely among my favourite books.
>
> Ted, I'm not surprised about sf fans listing their top 100 books. I'm
> actually interested in reading some (good) sci-fi, if anyone can recommend
> (no more than five) favourites. I can make an educated guess that the
> incomparable Larry Niven will feature in your list Ted?
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> > I've read DUNE too and it never struck me as all-encompassing like LoTR
> > did.
> > I did enjoy it though.
> >
> > I've read plenty of other stories that I'd rate higher than Dune on the
> > 'similar to the LoTR' scale. The Gormenghast Trilogy, Duncton Wood, and
> the
> > Thomas Covenant Chronicles come to mind.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Marayong
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 5:41 PM
> > > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> > >
> > > Peter Wilkin wrote:
> > >
> > > I read Dune many years ago .. decades even. And tried to read
> > > some of
> > > the sequels .. mostly because of ACC's recommendation that you
> > > mentioned.
> > >
> > > You have to be careful when reading such recommendations - you
> > > have no
> > > idea how much out of context it has been taken, nor just what
> > > the critic
> > > actually means. Did ACC mean that Dune was comparable to LotR
> > > in scope,
> > > quality, readability, characterisation, depth and so on and so
> > > on? or
> > > did he actually mean that Dune could be compared to LotR with
> > > some of
> > > those characteristics, but not all? For instance, a trite but
> > > true
> > > comparison of the two works is that both are long, very long.
> > > Especially
> > > given that at the time both were written SF&F novels tended to
> > > be a lot,
> > > LOT smaller. Big chunky novels tend to be more the norm today
> > > but back
> > > in the 60's and before they were *very* rare.
> > >
> > > Having said all that ... I did find that Dune (both the book &
> > > the
> > > series) and LotR (the extended book, ie the series) were very
> > > comparable
> > > in several ways. Firstly the trite sense in that both were very
> > > long
> > > works. But also in that a lot of text was devoted to making
> > > quite real a
> > > very elaborate and detailed world. From what I hear, Herbert
> > > also had
> > > copious notes about his world, some of which were subsequently
> > > published, I'd daresay. Then again, any half decent SF&F writer
> > > would
> > > have copious background material that was not included in the
> > > book but
> > > created to allow the writer to write a coherent story,
> > > especially if
> > > there were more than one volume. Both Dune & LotR could be put
> > > into that
> > > category of fiction called "epic", in that both the created
> > > world and
> > > the story itself are writ on a large canvas.
> > >
> > > So in all that sense, yes, Dune is comparable to LotR .. and
> > > back when
> > > Dune was written, there was very little else in the genre that
> > > had the
> > > same scope as Dune & LotR.
> > >
> > > However ... on the other hand .. there were areas in which the
> > > two works
> > > did not compare. Of course here one does enter the realm of
> > > personal
> > > opinion .. one persons treasure is another's trash. Some poor
> > > deluded
> > > people don't like LotR after all. Incomprehensible maybe, but
> > > true. My
> > > own view of Dune? The characterisations were poor and
> > > unbelievable, the
> > > plot flowed like, well, a brick (ie: it didn't flow at all).
> > > Reading the
> > > book was a labour. Not a labour of love, just a labour. A
> > > painful one. I
> > > did manage to finish the first volume .. and several chapters
> > > of the 2nd
> > > book .. before giving up. The plot meandered, it was hard to
> > > follow. It
> > > was, well, pointless. It was hard to read .. and there was
> > > little
> > > enjoyment to be had for that hard work.
> > >
> > > As you say, tough going reading the book.
> > >
> > > Still ... some liked the book ... and read all the sequels. Go
> > > figure!
> > >
> > > And there there was the movie starring Sting. I'll label that
> > > as
> > > "curious" and run away before any closet Dune fans out there
> > > decide to
> > > take a shot at me. :)
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > > A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it
> > > was a real
> > > > sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C.
> > > Clarke saying
> > > > that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the
> > > Rings*". Has
> > > > anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?
> > > >
> > > > I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going.
> > > The characters
> > > > seemed two-dimensional and the writing style was not
> > > fantastic. The whole
> > > > created world was impressive though. Then again, people have
> > > made these
> > > > exact criticism of LotR!
> > > >
> > > > P
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > List mailing list
> > > > List at tolharndor.org
> > > > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history &
> > > more!
> > >       http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
> > > The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for
> > > it
> > >   to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose
> > > its
> > >            own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > List mailing list
> > > List at tolharndor.org
> > > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Thu Nov 12 10:54:19 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:54:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <106645.1926.qm@web110209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

These novels all won Hugos. These are awards given by fans who attended that year's World Science Fiction Convention (as distinct from Nebulas - awards given by writers in the SFWA). I can do no better than to pick out some from the Hugos list. 

1961? -? A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller, Jr. 

1962? -? Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein 

(1966 - Dune by Frank Herbert)

1967 -? The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein 

1968 -? Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny ??? 

1970 -? The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin 

1971 -? Ringworld by Larry Niven 

1973 -? The Gods Themselves by Isaac Asimov ??? 

1974? - Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke 

1980 -? The Fountains of Paradise by Arthur C. Clarke

1989 -? Cyteen by C. J. Cherryh 

That's ten. Put the names in a hat and pull out five.

I guess you're right about Larry Niven being incomparable, but I'm not convinced that he is the best writer in the field, although he continues to sustain a high level of interest.

--- On Thu, 12/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:

That's interesting, I had pretty much the same response as David - poor
characters, clunky plot, and the writing style mediocre. Actually in a
strange way Herbert reminds me a little of David Eddings - even though there
are a bunch of different characters they all seem to have the same
personality (i.e. the personality of the author). In this case a bland kind
of machiavellianism. The world is obviously very carefully thought out, but
it's a shame when the literary execution can't back it up. I'm told that the
sequals written by Herbert's son are much worse.

I'd definitely rate Gormenghast much higher, though I haven't read Duncton
Wood or the first series of Thomas Covenant (read book I of the second
series). Gormenghast is definitely among my favourite books.

Ted, I'm not surprised about sf fans listing their top 100 books. I'm
actually interested in reading some (good) sci-fi, if anyone can recommend
(no more than five) favourites. I can make an educated guess that the
incomparable Larry Niven will feature in your list Ted?

Cheers,
Peter





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From dragon at roots-boots.net  Thu Nov 12 17:01:55 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (Marayong)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:01:55 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AFA5C78.7080605@roots-boots.net>	<DBDA9FEFAEBB4EF5A5793E94D06B2ABA@Michael>
	<8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AFBA4D3.3050808@roots-boots.net>

As a postscript to my comment ... I work with a chap who'se a SF&F nut. 
he's not a big fan of LotR, but has read the books. His comments about 
Dune were exactly the same ... good background, shame about the rest, 
including the writing style.

I won't even touch David Eddings!

cheers,
David

Peter Wilkin wrote:
> That's interesting, I had pretty much the same response as David - poor
> characters, clunky plot, and the writing style mediocre. Actually in a
> strange way Herbert reminds me a little of David Eddings - even though there
> are a bunch of different characters they all seem to have the same
> personality (i.e. the personality of the author). In this case a bland kind
> of machiavellianism. The world is obviously very carefully thought out, but
> it's a shame when the literary execution can't back it up. I'm told that the
> sequals written by Herbert's son are much worse.
>
> I'd definitely rate Gormenghast much higher, though I haven't read Duncton
> Wood or the first series of Thomas Covenant (read book I of the second
> series). Gormenghast is definitely among my favourite books.
>
> Ted, I'm not surprised about sf fans listing their top 100 books. I'm
> actually interested in reading some (good) sci-fi, if anyone can recommend
> (no more than five) favourites. I can make an educated guess that the
> incomparable Larry Niven will feature in your list Ted?
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Michael Kennedy<mlk at activ8.net.au>  wrote:
>
>> I've read DUNE too and it never struck me as all-encompassing like LoTR
>> did.
>> I did enjoy it though.
>>
>> I've read plenty of other stories that I'd rate higher than Dune on the
>> 'similar to the LoTR' scale. The Gormenghast Trilogy, Duncton Wood, and the
>> Thomas Covenant Chronicles come to mind.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
>>> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Marayong
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 5:41 PM
>>> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
>>> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
>>>
>>> Peter Wilkin wrote:
>>>
>>> I read Dune many years ago .. decades even. And tried to read
>>> some of
>>> the sequels .. mostly because of ACC's recommendation that you
>>> mentioned.
>>>
>>> You have to be careful when reading such recommendations - you
>>> have no
>>> idea how much out of context it has been taken, nor just what
>>> the critic
>>> actually means. Did ACC mean that Dune was comparable to LotR
>>> in scope,
>>> quality, readability, characterisation, depth and so on and so
>>> on? or
>>> did he actually mean that Dune could be compared to LotR with
>>> some of
>>> those characteristics, but not all? For instance, a trite but
>>> true
>>> comparison of the two works is that both are long, very long.
>>> Especially
>>> given that at the time both were written SF&F novels tended to
>>> be a lot,
>>> LOT smaller. Big chunky novels tend to be more the norm today
>>> but back
>>> in the 60's and before they were *very* rare.
>>>
>>> Having said all that ... I did find that Dune (both the book&
>>> the
>>> series) and LotR (the extended book, ie the series) were very
>>> comparable
>>> in several ways. Firstly the trite sense in that both were very
>>> long
>>> works. But also in that a lot of text was devoted to making
>>> quite real a
>>> very elaborate and detailed world. From what I hear, Herbert
>>> also had
>>> copious notes about his world, some of which were subsequently
>>> published, I'd daresay. Then again, any half decent SF&F writer
>>> would
>>> have copious background material that was not included in the
>>> book but
>>> created to allow the writer to write a coherent story,
>>> especially if
>>> there were more than one volume. Both Dune&  LotR could be put
>>> into that
>>> category of fiction called "epic", in that both the created
>>> world and
>>> the story itself are writ on a large canvas.
>>>
>>> So in all that sense, yes, Dune is comparable to LotR .. and
>>> back when
>>> Dune was written, there was very little else in the genre that
>>> had the
>>> same scope as Dune&  LotR.
>>>
>>> However ... on the other hand .. there were areas in which the
>>> two works
>>> did not compare. Of course here one does enter the realm of
>>> personal
>>> opinion .. one persons treasure is another's trash. Some poor
>>> deluded
>>> people don't like LotR after all. Incomprehensible maybe, but
>>> true. My
>>> own view of Dune? The characterisations were poor and
>>> unbelievable, the
>>> plot flowed like, well, a brick (ie: it didn't flow at all).
>>> Reading the
>>> book was a labour. Not a labour of love, just a labour. A
>>> painful one. I
>>> did manage to finish the first volume .. and several chapters
>>> of the 2nd
>>> book .. before giving up. The plot meandered, it was hard to
>>> follow. It
>>> was, well, pointless. It was hard to read .. and there was
>>> little
>>> enjoyment to be had for that hard work.
>>>
>>> As you say, tough going reading the book.
>>>
>>> Still ... some liked the book ... and read all the sequels. Go
>>> figure!
>>>
>>> And there there was the movie starring Sting. I'll label that
>>> as
>>> "curious" and run away before any closet Dune fans out there
>>> decide to
>>> take a shot at me. :)
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>> A couple of months ago I picked up Dune having heard that it
>>> was a real
>>>> sci-fi classic. On the cover there's a quote from Arthur C.
>>> Clarke saying
>>>> that "I know nothing comparable to it except *The Lord of the
>>> Rings*". Has
>>>> anyone read it and agreed with Clarke's claim?
>>>>
>>>> I've almost finished it but have found it pretty tough going.
>>> The characters
>>>> seemed two-dimensional and the writing style was not
>>> fantastic. The whole
>>>> created world was impressive though. Then again, people have
>>> made these
>>>> exact criticism of LotR!
>>>>
>>>> P
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> List mailing list
>>>> List at tolharndor.org
>>>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history&
>>> more!
>>>        http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
>>> The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for
>>> it
>>>    to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose
>>> its
>>>             own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List mailing list
>>> List at tolharndor.org
>>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List mailing list
>> List at tolharndor.org
>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

-- 
Line dancing, Genealogy, Travel, Photography, Local history & more!
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies


From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 09:24:03 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:24:03 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <106645.1926.qm@web110209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<106645.1926.qm@web110209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911171424l58d276a1p6df0b57a62af9a00@mail.gmail.com>

Of the books listed by Ted..I have read 7.
Most of them were beaut..I am of the same opinion as most of you re
Dune....background setting good.....story line difficult and not much
interest in character........tho' it was a long time ago (my reading)I have
always been facinated by Rendezvous with Rama....I've said this to you years
ago...never have I read a book with a greater sense of area, space,
geography or simply but compently described spaces
.............I do not mean space as in Starry non world space but the minute
descriptions of WHERE people are....where they are going and what they are
in...... and the Geography of the said (ship?...world?) of Rama.
becoming chaud here!
jeff
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> These novels all won Hugos. These are awards given by fans who attended
> that year's World Science Fiction Convention (as distinct from Nebulas -
> awards given by writers in the SFWA). I can do no better than to pick out
> some from the Hugos list.
>
> 1961  -  A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller, Jr.
>
> 1962  -  Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein
>
> (1966 - Dune by Frank Herbert)
>
> 1967 -  The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein
>
> 1968 -  Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny
>
> 1970 -  The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin
>
> 1971 -  Ringworld by Larry Niven
>
> 1973 -  The Gods Themselves by Isaac Asimov
>
> 1974  - Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke
>
> 1980 -  The Fountains of Paradise by Arthur C. Clarke
>
> 1989 -  Cyteen by C. J. Cherryh
>
> That's ten. Put the names in a hat and pull out five.
>
> I guess you're right about Larry Niven being incomparable, but I'm not
> convinced that he is the best writer in the field, although he continues to
> sustain a high level of interest.
>
> --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That's interesting, I had pretty much the same response as David - poor
> characters, clunky plot, and the writing style mediocre. Actually in a
> strange way Herbert reminds me a little of David Eddings - even though
> there
> are a bunch of different characters they all seem to have the same
> personality (i.e. the personality of the author). In this case a bland kind
> of machiavellianism. The world is obviously very carefully thought out, but
> it's a shame when the literary execution can't back it up. I'm told that
> the
> sequals written by Herbert's son are much worse.
>
> I'd definitely rate Gormenghast much higher, though I haven't read Duncton
> Wood or the first series of Thomas Covenant (read book I of the second
> series). Gormenghast is definitely among my favourite books.
>
> Ted, I'm not surprised about sf fans listing their top 100 books. I'm
> actually interested in reading some (good) sci-fi, if anyone can recommend
> (no more than five) favourites. I can make an educated guess that the
> incomparable Larry Niven will feature in your list Ted?
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
>  List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov 18 10:23:33 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:23:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911171424l58d276a1p6df0b57a62af9a00@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <439177.26412.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Oddly (or perhaps not) I thought that Rama (the original) was one of the few books that I've read that were most similar to Niven's writing. Have you read any of the Rama sequels? I heard that another author (whose name I can't remember) took over the series and as a result it went downhill fast. I have to say the same thing for Ringworld, although Larry wrote all four of them.

I value the Hugos above the Nebulas (Nebulae?) as I consider the readers and fans are more discriminating than the writers' peer group, each of whom is probably more concerned with their own writing than with the writing of others. However, if a book wins both awards in the same year it must be given due credit.

Bekommen heiss hier auch (though I'm sure that a German would arrange the words differently and probably use a different form of the verb bekommen).

--- On Wed, 18/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

Of the books listed by Ted..I have read 7.
Most of them were beaut..I am of the same opinion as most of you re
Dune....background setting good.....story line difficult and not much
interest in character........tho' it was a long time ago (my reading)I have
always been facinated by Rendezvous with Rama....I've said this to you years
ago...never have I read a book with a greater sense of area, space,
geography or simply but compently described spaces
.............I do not mean space as in Starry non world space but the minute
descriptions of WHERE people are....where they are going and what they are
in...... and the Geography of the said (ship?...world?) of Rama.
becoming chaud here!
jeff




      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From dragon at roots-boots.net  Wed Nov 18 11:16:41 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (David Powell)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:16:41 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911171424l58d276a1p6df0b57a62af9a00@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8747777b0911111349w47e3408bh122b9952899a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<106645.1926.qm@web110209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<ecc18000911171424l58d276a1p6df0b57a62af9a00@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091118111641.k267bhdeskk0gkc8@roots-boots.net>

Quoting Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>:

>> 1961  -  A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller, Jr.
>> 1962  -  Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein
>> (1966 - Dune by Frank Herbert)
>> 1967 -  The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein
>> 1968 -  Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny
>> 1970 -  The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin
>> 1971 -  Ringworld by Larry Niven
>> 1973 -  The Gods Themselves by Isaac Asimov
>> 1974  - Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke
>> 1980 -  The Fountains of Paradise by Arthur C. Clarke
>> 1989 -  Cyteen by C. J. Cherryh

I've read them all and apart from Dune still have the books in my  
library, which has a turn-over of between 5-10 years (that's how long  
before a book is re-read). Wait .. I read Canticle as a library book,  
so don't have that one.

I agree with Jeff about Rend. with Rama. Very interesting read. Even  
if the author equates LotR with Dune! :)

cheers,
David

>>
>> That's ten. Put the names in a hat and pull out five.
>>
>> I guess you're right about Larry Niven being incomparable, but I'm not
>> convinced that he is the best writer in the field, although he continues to
>> sustain a high level of interest.
>>
>> --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Peter Wilkin <pwilkin37 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That's interesting, I had pretty much the same response as David - poor
>> characters, clunky plot, and the writing style mediocre. Actually in a
>> strange way Herbert reminds me a little of David Eddings - even though
>> there
>> are a bunch of different characters they all seem to have the same
>> personality (i.e. the personality of the author). In this case a bland kind
>> of machiavellianism. The world is obviously very carefully thought out, but
>> it's a shame when the literary execution can't back it up. I'm told that
>> the
>> sequals written by Herbert's son are much worse.
>>
>> I'd definitely rate Gormenghast much higher, though I haven't read Duncton
>> Wood or the first series of Thomas Covenant (read book I of the second
>> series). Gormenghast is definitely among my favourite books.
>>
>> Ted, I'm not surprised about sf fans listing their top 100 books. I'm
>> actually interested in reading some (good) sci-fi, if anyone can recommend
>> (no more than five) favourites. I can make an educated guess that the
>> incomparable Larry Niven will feature in your list Ted?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>> __________________________________________________________________________________
>> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
>> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
>> _______________________________________________
>>  List mailing list
>> List at tolharndor.org
>> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>



-- 
  Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth 2005,2007,2008
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies




From mlk at activ8.net.au  Wed Nov 18 19:55:08 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:55:08 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <439177.26412.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E83430D844A1475582A51FF8D38B9C47@Michael>

Jeff,

Your succinct review has caused me to place this book in my little blue
book. Speaking of Niven, I do have a copy of Destiny's Road, as yet unread.
Ted - how does this book rate?

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2009 10:24 AM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> 
> Oddly (or perhaps not) I thought that Rama (the original) was
> one of the few books that I've read that were most similar to
> Niven's writing. Have you read any of the Rama sequels? I heard
> that another author (whose name I can't remember) took over the
> series and as a result it went downhill fast. I have to say the
> same thing for Ringworld, although Larry wrote all four of them.
> 
> I value the Hugos above the Nebulas (Nebulae?) as I consider
> the readers and fans are more discriminating than the writers'
> peer group, each of whom is probably more concerned with their
> own writing than with the writing of others. However, if a book
> wins both awards in the same year it must be given due credit.
> 
> Bekommen heiss hier auch (though I'm sure that a German would
> arrange the words differently and probably use a different form
> of the verb bekommen).
> 
> --- On Wed, 18/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> Of the books listed by Ted..I have read 7.
> Most of them were beaut..I am of the same opinion as most of
> you re
> Dune....background setting good.....story line difficult and
> not much
> interest in character........tho' it was a long time ago (my
> reading)I have
> always been facinated by Rendezvous with Rama....I've said this
> to you years
> ago...never have I read a book with a greater sense of area,
> space,
> geography or simply but compently described spaces
> .............I do not mean space as in Starry non world space
> but the minute
> descriptions of WHERE people are....where they are going and
> what they are
> in...... and the Geography of the said (ship?...world?) of Rama.
> becoming chaud here!
> jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From krenon at y7mail.com  Wed Nov 18 20:10:26 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:10:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <E83430D844A1475582A51FF8D38B9C47@Michael>
Message-ID: <313809.89496.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Read it by all means, Michael. I must admit it was not one of my favourites, but others I know liked it a lot. For reviews and other in lnformation go to www.larryniven.org, but disregard my name if you see it - it's only there as a courtesy.

--- On Wed, 18/11/09, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:
Jeff
Your succinct review has caused me to place this book in my little blue
book. Speaking of Niven, I do have a copy of Destiny's Road, as yet unread.
Ted - how does this book rate?

Michael




      __________________________________________________________________________________
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From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 09:06:36 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:06:36 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <439177.26412.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000911171424l58d276a1p6df0b57a62af9a00@mail.gmail.com>
	<439177.26412.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911181406g7969c826j8bfce899e044fb9a@mail.gmail.com>

But Ted it IS becoming of you to use this Kute (at times) language.
Enschooldegong, und der fuhrer ist in der Schiesenhausen!

jeff



On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> Oddly (or perhaps not) I thought that Rama (the original) was one of the
> few books that I've read that were most similar to Niven's writing. Have you
> read any of the Rama sequels? I heard that another author (whose name I
> can't remember) took over the series and as a result it went downhill fast.
> I have to say the same thing for Ringworld, although Larry wrote all four of
> them.
>
> I value the Hugos above the Nebulas (Nebulae?) as I consider the readers
> and fans are more discriminating than the writers' peer group, each of whom
> is probably more concerned with their own writing than with the writing of
> others. However, if a book wins both awards in the same year it must be
> given due credit.
>
> Bekommen heiss hier auch (though I'm sure that a German would arrange the
> words differently and probably use a different form of the verb bekommen).
>
> --- On Wed, 18/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Of the books listed by Ted..I have read 7.
> Most of them were beaut..I am of the same opinion as most of you re
> Dune....background setting good.....story line difficult and not much
> interest in character........tho' it was a long time ago (my reading)I have
> always been facinated by Rendezvous with Rama....I've said this to you
> years
> ago...never have I read a book with a greater sense of area, space,
> geography or simply but compently described spaces
> .............I do not mean space as in Starry non world space but the
> minute
> descriptions of WHERE people are....where they are going and what they are
> in...... and the Geography of the said (ship?...world?) of Rama.
> becoming chaud here!
> jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Thu Nov 19 11:27:14 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:27:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911181406g7969c826j8bfce899e044fb9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <944005.3321.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Surely just one Scheisenhaus at a time? Also I *think* the word is enschuldigen.

--- On Thu, 19/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:


But Ted it IS becoming of you to use this Kute (at times) language.
Enschooldegong, und der fuhrer ist in der Schiesenhausen!

jeff





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 10:03:52 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:03:52 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <944005.3321.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000911181406g7969c826j8bfce899e044fb9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<944005.3321.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911191503n31db453do75453631e21748fb@mail.gmail.com>

All correct.........your corrections I mean Ted
There was an old bloke who tried German,
(complete)

(ryhmes)
Vermin
sermon
merman
human (?)
two man
Schumann
detirmine
ermine.......................
love jeff
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> Surely just one Scheisenhaus at a time? Also I *think* the word is
> enschuldigen.
>
> --- On Thu, 19/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> But Ted it IS becoming of you to use this Kute (at times) language.
> Enschooldegong, und der fuhrer ist in der Schiesenhausen!
>
> jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Fri Nov 20 10:34:01 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911191503n31db453do75453631e21748fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <552636.412.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I was wondering whether it's ENschuldigen or ENTschuldigen. If the latter I could say "ObTolkien" as we on the Larry Niven list like to say "ObNiven" if, in posting about something that's nothing to do with Niven, one can squeeze in a word that relates to or comes from a Niven story.

All I could think of in your quest for rhymes with "German" was a few lines from Browning's "Pied Piper" You had all the (rhyming) words anyway.

... "To think we buy gowns lined with ermine
For dolts that can't or won't determine
What's best to rid us of our vermin."
At that the Mayor and Corporation
Quaked with a mighty consternation.

That's ObTolkien. He said (somewhere, perhaps quoted in Carpenter's biography of him) that he hated that poem.

Re limericks, W. S. Gilbert wrote

There was a young man from Tralee
Who was stung on the neck by a wasp.
When asked "does it buzz?"
He replied "Yes, it hurts -
It's a horrible brute of a hornet."

--- On Fri, 20/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

All correct.........your corrections I mean Ted
There was an old bloke who tried German,
(complete)

(ryhmes)
Vermin
sermon
merman
human (?)
two man
Schumann
detirmine
ermine.......................
love jeff




      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 08:59:38 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:59:38 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <552636.412.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000911191503n31db453do75453631e21748fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<552636.412.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911201359u1902003dq7c935a3e7a332a6d@mail.gmail.com>

My turn Ted...

There was a man who tried German
And tho' he was very detirmined,
All his ummlatters got stuck,
The goosey genders ran amuck
And in place of huge steins he drank Bourbon.
jeff

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> I was wondering whether it's ENschuldigen or ENTschuldigen. If the latter I
> could say "ObTolkien" as we on the Larry Niven list like to say "ObNiven"
> if, in posting about something that's nothing to do with Niven, one can
> squeeze in a word that relates to or comes from a Niven story.
>
> All I could think of in your quest for rhymes with "German" was a few lines
> from Browning's "Pied Piper" You had all the (rhyming) words anyway.
>
> ... "To think we buy gowns lined with ermine
> For dolts that can't or won't determine
> What's best to rid us of our vermin."
> At that the Mayor and Corporation
> Quaked with a mighty consternation.
>
> That's ObTolkien. He said (somewhere, perhaps quoted in Carpenter's
> biography of him) that he hated that poem.
>
> Re limericks, W. S. Gilbert wrote
>
> There was a young man from Tralee
> Who was stung on the neck by a wasp.
> When asked "does it buzz?"
> He replied "Yes, it hurts -
> It's a horrible brute of a hornet."
>
> --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All correct.........your corrections I mean Ted
> There was an old bloke who tried German,
> (complete)
>
> (ryhmes)
> Vermin
> sermon
> merman
> human (?)
> two man
> Schumann
> detirmine
> ermine.......................
> love jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Sat Nov 21 11:25:15 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:25:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911201359u1902003dq7c935a3e7a332a6d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <281026.43840.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Umlauts, surely! As for German genders, yeah! I sympathise.

Once when I was walking the Esplanade at Cronulla I came up behind a girl who wore a t-shirt, on the back of which, in large letters, were: "YAY GIR MY STIR" I had no idea what that meant. Later I saw the front of the t-shirt and it had something on it in Gothic letters. I couldn't read it. Much later I learned the truth. I am now the proud possessor of a bottle of J

?germeister - it lives in a cupboard next to one of Drambuie. Both of them are evocative of miruvor. ObTolkien.

--- On Sat, 21/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

My turn Ted...

There was a man who tried German
And tho' he was very detirmined,
All his ummlatters got stuck,
The goosey genders ran amuck
And in place of huge steins he drank Bourbon.
jeff





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 09:13:37 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:13:37 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <281026.43840.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000911201359u1902003dq7c935a3e7a332a6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<281026.43840.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911211413g2ccbd9daj37c993aefb5d883a@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, Ted write on!
I knew dat there was something wrong
with my ummlatters when I wrote the word........................impossible
.indeed it looked  I could do no better tho' at the time.
4 months und a bit und I will be hearing der real ting tho........in Wien.
Weather ...A deluge ALL night (of rain) last night..........
floods and chaos reign (rain)
It's good isn't it?
jeff
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> Umlauts, surely! As for German genders, yeah! I sympathise.
>
> Once when I was walking the Esplanade at Cronulla I came up behind a girl
> who wore a t-shirt, on the back of which, in large letters, were: "YAY GIR
> MY STIR" I had no idea what that meant. Later I saw the front of the t-shirt
> and it had something on it in Gothic letters. I couldn't read it. Much later
> I learned the truth. I am now the proud possessor of a bottle of J
>
> ?germeister - it lives in a cupboard next to one of Drambuie. Both of them
> are evocative of miruvor. ObTolkien.
>
> --- On Sat, 21/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My turn Ted...
>
> There was a man who tried German
> And tho' he was very detirmined,
> All his ummlatters got stuck,
> The goosey genders ran amuck
> And in place of huge steins he drank Bourbon.
> jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov 22 13:01:10 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:01:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911211413g2ccbd9daj37c993aefb5d883a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <122637.60159.qm@web110202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

God gave Noah the rainbow sign
No more water but fire next time

- "Oh Mary, Don't You Weep"

Well it's water for Melbourne and water for Cumbria but it's fire for us and we don't need Donald Trump to tell us about it. Actually there are two fires within 15 Km of us now but one is "under control" and the other is "being controlled", but just tell that one to the residents of Mount Wilson. Also the wind isn't a patch on what blew through Marysville on that terrible day, nor is the temperature. But, yes, it can happen.

I know a lady who used to live in San Jos?, CA, where they have earthquakes. Fires and rain have some advance warning, but earthquakes have none of that - the first thing you know is that it is on you. But those who live on the San Andreas fault proudly proclaim themselves as "not wimps".

--- On Sun, 22/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:


Yeah, Ted write on!
I knew dat there was something wrong
with my ummlatters when I wrote the word........................impossible
.indeed it looked? I could do no better tho' at the time.
4 months und a bit und I will be hearing der real ting tho........in Wien.
Weather ...A deluge ALL night (of rain) last night..........
floods and chaos reign (rain)
It's good isn't it?




      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 09:24:41 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:24:41 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <4CEB75A77C364278B4F4C3533B9AC171@Michael>
References: <20091111115401.ietwytuvegwccg4w@roots-boots.net>
	<4CEB75A77C364278B4F4C3533B9AC171@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911231424k6510c116nc25edfd8a11d58fe@mail.gmail.com>

Where O where is little Michael?
jeff

From krenon at y7mail.com  Tue Nov 24 11:08:03 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:08:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911231424k6510c116nc25edfd8a11d58fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <178869.97060.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Don't know. Want us to send out a search party?

--- On Tue, 24/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

Where O where is little Michael?
jeff




      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From dragon at roots-boots.net  Tue Nov 24 11:26:57 2009
From: dragon at roots-boots.net (David Powell)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:26:57 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <178869.97060.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <178869.97060.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20091124112657.kj27uypiww0c8s4k@roots-boots.net>

Maybe he's off with Sergio? :)

cheers,
David

Quoting Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com>:

> Don't know. Want us to send out a search party?
>
> --- On Tue, 24/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Where O where is little Michael?
> jeff
>
>
>
>
>         
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>



-- 
  Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth 2005,2007,2008
      http://roots-boots.net     mailto:dragon at roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
  to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
           own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies




From mlk at activ8.net.au  Tue Nov 24 21:43:19 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:43:19 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <178869.97060.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9D308144EA7B48B7889A8E75095B6206@Michael>

I'm still here Jeff! I'm sitting at my desk in muted light reading Seamus
Heaney's version of Beowulf...So. The Spear-Danes in days gone by..

I've been otherwise occupied of late with less cerebral-satisfying matters
that some refer to as work. Fortunately, the brakes have been applied as we
edge closer to December, which should be a relatively quiet month to catch
up on a few things that are more appealing.

I have received three talks so far for August next year. Not many but if I
recall from last time, most arrived in the last few months.

I hope all is well!    

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2009 11:08 AM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
> 
> Don't know. Want us to send out a search party?
> 
> --- On Tue, 24/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> Where O where is little Michael?
> jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 09:13:04 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:13:04 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <9D308144EA7B48B7889A8E75095B6206@Michael>
References: <178869.97060.qm@web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<9D308144EA7B48B7889A8E75095B6206@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911251413h786b0d33v4e2b39493ea6e11d@mail.gmail.com>

Yes I did see Heamus' vesion at Readings some time ago...I WAS
tempted....have not got it..
On the other hand I have been doing a (chapter) update for my editor
Christina...she's almost at the close of editing the B thing.....and it is
the Berggie...... I gave reasons why I wanted to visit the Shetlands
Isles...the Orkneys and the Hebrides(back then)....I used my (muted)
interest in Beowulf as part of the reasons......
New travel plans...as you know I plan to fly via Doha.....(direct from Melb
town) and thence to Wien.....also direct....(April 2nd)...Good Friday next
year....it is my grandaughter Emily's 2nd birthday....that very day.
Question still is....What will I write (about) in Vienna.....a
hint.....Vienna is a big Jazz town.
Never fear for I will return here LONGGGGGGGGG before the confest.
THE GABBA!
jeff




On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

> I'm still here Jeff! I'm sitting at my desk in muted light reading Seamus
> Heaney's version of Beowulf...So. The Spear-Danes in days gone by..
>
> I've been otherwise occupied of late with less cerebral-satisfying matters
> that some refer to as work. Fortunately, the brakes have been applied as we
> edge closer to December, which should be a relatively quiet month to catch
> up on a few things that are more appealing.
>
> I have received three talks so far for August next year. Not many but if I
> recall from last time, most arrived in the last few months.
> I hope all is well!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> > Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2009 11:08 AM
> > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
> >
>  > Don't know. Want us to send out a search party?
> >
> > --- On Tue, 24/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Where O where is little Michael?
> > jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > ___________________
> > Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> > Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From krenon at y7mail.com  Thu Nov 26 10:31:39 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:31:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911251413h786b0d33v4e2b39493ea6e11d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94099.99721.qm@web110210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

You should say airily "Oh I bought a version in the original Saxon and I'm translating it myself". Peter did, so I was told.

Vienna big on jazz? I always thought of it as the city where the patricians wept tears of champagne and danced home to bed at dawn. And? if they didn't waltz they polka-ed. Still I guess it's gone through a fair bit since those halcyon days. 

In any case I'm sure you will find a suitable topic. Yesterday I got a copy of Edwina Harvey's book "The Whale's Tale". She wrote and published it but she forgot to open a bank account for the publisher which is called Peggy Bright Books (no jests please, she took the name from her late mother). I need to get a copy of Richard Harland's "Worldshaker", by Saturday if I can as Richard will be there at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon (Bankstown Library).

Cheers

Ted

--- On Thu, 26/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

Yes I did see Heamus' vesion at Readings some time ago...I WAS
tempted....have not got it..
On the other hand I have been doing a (chapter) update for my editor
Christina...she's almost at the close of editing the B thing.....and it is
the Berggie...... I gave reasons why I wanted to visit the Shetlands
Isles...the Orkneys and the Hebrides(back then)....I used my (muted)
interest in Beowulf as part of the reasons......
New travel plans...as you know I plan to fly via Doha.....(direct from Melb
town) and thence to Wien.....also direct....(April 2nd)...Good Friday next
year....it is my grandaughter Emily's 2nd birthday....that very day.
Question still is....What will I write (about) in Vienna.....a
hint.....Vienna is a big Jazz town.
Never fear for I will return here LONGGGGGGGGG before the confest.
THE GABBA!
jeff





      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From mlk at activ8.net.au  Thu Nov 26 10:57:41 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:57:41 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <94099.99721.qm@web110210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <09D22B92999E48B09F8FFFCB97BD07EF@Michael>

Some things go without saying Ted. ;-)

Speaking of bank accounts, one would need a sizeable one to purchase this
original JRRT drawing.

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159566775



> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2009 10:32 AM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
> 
> You should say airily "Oh I bought a version in the original
> Saxon and I'm translating it myself". Peter did, so I was told.
> 
> Vienna big on jazz? I always thought of it as the city where
> the patricians wept tears of champagne and danced home to bed
> at dawn. And? if they didn't waltz they polka-ed. Still I guess
> it's gone through a fair bit since those halcyon days.
> 
> In any case I'm sure you will find a suitable topic. Yesterday
> I got a copy of Edwina Harvey's book "The Whale's Tale". She
> wrote and published it but she forgot to open a bank account
> for the publisher which is called Peggy Bright Books (no jests
> please, she took the name from her late mother). I need to get
> a copy of Richard Harland's "Worldshaker", by Saturday if I can
> as Richard will be there at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon
> (Bankstown Library).
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ted
> 
> --- On Thu, 26/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> Yes I did see Heamus' vesion at Readings some time ago...I WAS
> tempted....have not got it..
> On the other hand I have been doing a (chapter) update for my
> editor
> Christina...she's almost at the close of editing the B
> thing.....and it is
> the Berggie...... I gave reasons why I wanted to visit the
> Shetlands
> Isles...the Orkneys and the Hebrides(back then)....I used my
> (muted)
> interest in Beowulf as part of the reasons......
> New travel plans...as you know I plan to fly via
> Doha.....(direct from Melb
> town) and thence to Wien.....also direct....(April 2nd)...Good
> Friday next
> year....it is my grandaughter Emily's 2nd birthday....that very
> day.
> Question still is....What will I write (about) in Vienna.....a
> hint.....Vienna is a big Jazz town.
> Never fear for I will return here LONGGGGGGGGG before the
> confest.
> THE GABBA!
> jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From krenon at y7mail.com  Thu Nov 26 11:51:15 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:51:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <09D22B92999E48B09F8FFFCB97BD07EF@Michael>
Message-ID: <575777.85271.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

If you had the money and the mind to buy it, now would be not a bad time - the AUD is worth around 55p.

--- On Thu, 26/11/09, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

Some things go without saying Ted. ;-)

Speaking of bank accounts, one would need a sizeable one to purchase this
original JRRT drawing.

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159566775




Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 09:40:29 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:40:29 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Sergio Wippel anyone?
In-Reply-To: <575777.85271.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <09D22B92999E48B09F8FFFCB97BD07EF@Michael>
	<575777.85271.qm@web110215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911261440m36bbab61s8a1bfe3245bb07c2@mail.gmail.com>

> Here all is go!
>

Here all is now recovering after (yet another) storm. here........

I am still ploughing on with The Water, the water.....my new (and
kinda 'autobiographical) work....now @ 62,000 words......I had a flying
start already ....for I already had written some 000's of words written in
(older ) versions.....still it is substantial....at least in quantity if not
in anyrthing more....or else!.....on and on.....I go....and the road.......
Why the title?....good question.......
I grew up (mostly) at Yarrawonga....and thus the Murray River and Lake
Mulwala....plenty of background around the cod, the redfin, the yellow
belly, the freshwater crays, the birdlife, boats, yachts,
speedboats,freshwater turtles, rafts and craft of many
kinds...... boaters,snakes, rabbits, hermits,foxes, shooters, fishers,,the
drowned, the sportsmen, the abandoned women,cockies both bird like and
others, drunks, publicans, teachers, a brother, uncles, drinkers in bars and
in other places..... drovers, the rather mad returned men....from the good
war that is....
......... lost sheilas and would be or couldabeen lovers.... ........and
other non water drinking animals.............who lived for a while and
laughed or and cried with me.........
...ie of the human kind.since 1941..........and so Yarrawonga merges into me
in so many ways...........as in The Water, the water...
love jeff

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 09:36:34 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:36:34 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <E83430D844A1475582A51FF8D38B9C47@Michael>
References: <439177.26412.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<E83430D844A1475582A51FF8D38B9C47@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911271436u53b409ecj61cc84f9e846f777@mail.gmail.com>

Hey I looked back to see that Michael had accused Moi of being succinct...as
in a 'succinct review'.......??????? dis is v odd..........moi succinct?
Ok then Who was Odysseus' father......Was it Telemachus?
Have not a clue if not.
jeff

From krenon at y7mail.com  Sun Nov 29 07:08:13 2009
From: krenon at y7mail.com (Edwin Scribner)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 12:08:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <ecc18000911271436u53b409ecj61cc84f9e846f777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12048.89609.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

It's not succinct, it's suck-synced, as in two people drinking milkshakes through straws and keeping the level of the milk the same in each glass. :)

I've now acquired a copy of Richard Harland's "World Shaker" - bought from the author yesterday at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon '09 (at Bankstown Library). Quite an impressive lineup of local writers were there, including Kate Forsyth, Terry Dowling and of course Richard.

--- On Sat, 28/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:

Hey I looked back to see that Michael had accused Moi of being succinct...as
in a 'succinct review'.......??????? dis is v odd..........moi succinct?
Ok then Who was Odysseus' father......Was it Telemachus?
Have not a clue if not.
jeff




      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Sun Nov 29 09:06:42 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:06:42 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <12048.89609.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ecc18000911271436u53b409ecj61cc84f9e846f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<12048.89609.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911281406t335b722ds51292a8192bb496d@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah Ted,
In synch....I get it but it still shakes the hell out of me how you got your
brain around that....
But what about Odysseus' dad?
Was it Telemachus...or am I way off the Mediterranean track?
jeff
cool and cool with a record of Gerry Muligan's hits...oh man!

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Edwin Scribner <krenon at y7mail.com> wrote:

> It's not succinct, it's suck-synced, as in two people drinking milkshakes
> through straws and keeping the level of the milk the same in each glass. :)
>
> I've now acquired a copy of Richard Harland's "World Shaker" - bought from
> the author yesterday at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon '09 (at Bankstown
> Library). Quite an impressive lineup of local writers were there, including
> Kate Forsyth, Terry Dowling and of course Richard.
>
> --- On Sat, 28/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey I looked back to see that Michael had accused Moi of being
> succinct...as
> in a 'succinct review'.......??????? dis is v odd..........moi succinct?
> Ok then Who was Odysseus' father......Was it Telemachus?
> Have not a clue if not.
> jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From mlk at activ8.net.au  Mon Nov 30 09:12:13 2009
From: mlk at activ8.net.au (Michael Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:12:13 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <12048.89609.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DFA8D78D9FDF4A53B233C7452A397C0F@Michael>

Jeff,

I can't recall who Odysseus' father is, although I know for a fact that
Telemachus was his son. A quick Google search says that Laertes, an
Argonaut, was his father.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> Sent: Sunday, 29 November 2009 7:08 AM
> To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> 
> It's not succinct, it's suck-synced, as in two people drinking
> milkshakes through straws and keeping the level of the milk the
> same in each glass. :)
> 
> I've now acquired a copy of Richard Harland's "World Shaker" -
> bought from the author yesterday at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon
> '09 (at Bankstown Library). Quite an impressive lineup of local
> writers were there, including Kate Forsyth, Terry Dowling and
> of course Richard.
> 
> --- On Sat, 28/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> Hey I looked back to see that Michael had accused Moi of being
> succinct...as
> in a 'succinct review'.......??????? dis is v odd..........moi
> succinct?
> Ok then Who was Odysseus' father......Was it Telemachus?
> Have not a clue if not.
> jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org



From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 09:51:41 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:51:41 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <DFA8D78D9FDF4A53B233C7452A397C0F@Michael>
References: <12048.89609.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<DFA8D78D9FDF4A53B233C7452A397C0F@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911291451y32751cd0v8361dac70af6be29@mail.gmail.com>

Laertes?
Ta Michael.......
You search and you will find eh?
just like big Oddy himself.
I once had the hots to do a pictorial series based on the Odyssey..nothing
came of it...
What about jazz as a backgroundto a Vienna tale?
A mystery ja?

The Wien Jazz festival runs in late June.....
I already know at least on Jazz club there.....near the Nue Danube canal it
is......in the north of the city proper.....if it is still there.
Jeff
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> I can't recall who Odysseus' father is, although I know for a fact that
> Telemachus was his son. A quick Google search says that Laertes, an
> Argonaut, was his father.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 November 2009 7:08 AM
> > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> >
>  > It's not succinct, it's suck-synced, as in two people drinking
> > milkshakes through straws and keeping the level of the milk the
> > same in each glass. :)
> >
> > I've now acquired a copy of Richard Harland's "World Shaker" -
> > bought from the author yesterday at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon
> > '09 (at Bankstown Library). Quite an impressive lineup of local
> > writers were there, including Kate Forsyth, Terry Dowling and
> > of course Richard.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 28/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hey I looked back to see that Michael had accused Moi of being
> > succinct...as
> > in a 'succinct review'.......??????? dis is v odd..........moi
> > succinct?
> > Ok then Who was Odysseus' father......Was it Telemachus?
> > Have not a clue if not.
> > jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > ___________________
> > Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> > Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>

From jeffreyblynch at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 09:52:30 2009
From: jeffreyblynch at gmail.com (Jeff Lynch)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:52:30 +1100
Subject: [TolHarndor] Dune
In-Reply-To: <DFA8D78D9FDF4A53B233C7452A397C0F@Michael>
References: <12048.89609.qm@web110207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<DFA8D78D9FDF4A53B233C7452A397C0F@Michael>
Message-ID: <ecc18000911291452q787cecbew76b2029643a9143f@mail.gmail.com>

On stand by
jeff

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Michael Kennedy <mlk at activ8.net.au> wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> I can't recall who Odysseus' father is, although I know for a fact that
> Telemachus was his son. A quick Google search says that Laertes, an
> Argonaut, was his father.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: list-bounces at tolharndor.org [mailto:list-
> > bounces at tolharndor.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Scribner
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 November 2009 7:08 AM
> > To: Tol Harndor - Australian Tolkien Society
> > Subject: Re: [TolHarndor] Dune
> >
>  > It's not succinct, it's suck-synced, as in two people drinking
> > milkshakes through straws and keeping the level of the milk the
> > same in each glass. :)
> >
> > I've now acquired a copy of Richard Harland's "World Shaker" -
> > bought from the author yesterday at Garry Dalrymple's Freecon
> > '09 (at Bankstown Library). Quite an impressive lineup of local
> > writers were there, including Kate Forsyth, Terry Dowling and
> > of course Richard.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 28/11/09, Jeff Lynch <jeffreyblynch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hey I looked back to see that Michael had accused Moi of being
> > succinct...as
> > in a 'succinct review'.......??????? dis is v odd..........moi
> > succinct?
> > Ok then Who was Odysseus' father......Was it Telemachus?
> > Have not a clue if not.
> > jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > ___________________
> > Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> > Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
> > _______________________________________________
> > List mailing list
> > List at tolharndor.org
> > http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List mailing list
> List at tolharndor.org
> http://tolharndor.org/mailman/listinfo/list_tolharndor.org
>